I have stacks of DVDs. I keep them on the DVD trees the burnables come on, the cases take up way too much room. I have been playing shooters since Doom, 17 years now.

I don't call myself anything actually.

Okay people...

Now we're starting to get into the name-calling stage of this conversation, here. While it may be a shocking concept to some of you that someone can have a view other than your own - it's still not cause for calling names or making broad generalizations.

Debate the issue, not the person. If things keep delving into a personal level, I'm going to have to intervene with something more than a strongly-worded post...

Auto-patching.

Also, it's not Games For Windows Live, which makes it just about the greatest thing ever.

I'll assume you consider Auto-Patching to be a good thing
I'd much rather have a have choice in what version my Single-player games are.

I did dread G4WL until I found out in FO3 that it was Optional & I have yet to use the "LIVE access key" for either the collector's or GOTY FO3 editions I own.
So from my POV G4WL was better,

You win, there is no point I can make that will overcome your fervent hatred of steam if you honestly believe G4WL is better. Dead RIsing 2 made me seriously consider never buying a G4WL game ever again.

I actually don't hate Steam, It's a good option for those able to use it. Steamworks on the other hand is forced on everyone whether they can or can't use it well. So I wouldn't say I'm a "Steam-hater" just Pro Choice

& besides it's not about me "winning" a debate/argument if Beth would release a legit Steam-free version they could tap into a bigger customer/fan-base than just the 30 mil or so that the Steam community is made of.

I do realize that Beth would want a alternative DRM, & I'd be fine with that.

Thank you!

Glad I'm not the only one able to see this...

And I ask again, Steam delaying the patch I could already be using if not for their delay is supposed to be making my borked-until-Steam-lets-me-have-The-Patch game more enjoyable how?

I wouldn't say that GFWL is better than Steam. I would say that the way Fallout 3 used GFWL is better than the way New Vegas uses Steam. When I installed Fallout 3 it automatically installed GFWL on my machine. I promptly uninstalled GFWL and was quite happy. If it were possible to uninstall Steam and still be able to keep playing New Vegas (legally) then I would probably quit complaining as much and go get the game. I would still maintain that there would need to be some form of offline registration for those without internet access.

In general I would say that GFWL and Steam are about equal. I made the mistake of getting another GFWL game thinking that I could just ignore it like I did with Fallout 3. I raged every time I started the game because I had to sign in, and yes I still signed in Offline Mode despite the fact that I have broadband and can be online all the time. I burned my way through the game (being the huge Batman fan that I am) but ignored all the extra side missions needed to get to the 100% completion bonuses. I then uninstalled both the game and GFWL.

Several posts have already covered this. The patch team is the one holding it back, probably because they made some errors. If you could already have it you might have been looking at a broken patch.

Also I see people saying they don't like that they have to use Steam, which I get. What I don't get is what so terrible about using it.

All I can say is I wished it wasn't Steam since I had a very bad experience with AVP. But it could be Sega's fault afterall. Now that I'm playing F:NV with Steam, I've mixed feelings about it but it's not as bad I expected it to be.

Several posts have already covered this

all the arguments so far are easily refuted:

1). I don't like auto patching!
Answer: turn off auto patching

2). I have to be online to play my games!
Answer: go in offline mode, you only have to be online for initial activation

3). I have an unwanted program running on my computer!
Answer: Create a steam group about how much you hate steam, that way you use the program so its no longer unwanted and you have fellow steam haters to talk to

4). If steam goes down I lose all my games forever!
Answer: Not if they are already installed on your hdd, also steam has been steadily growing over the last few years, it is more likely pc gaming dies as a whole than steam itself goes under.

Am I missing any others?

Apparently broken. Still auto-patches even when turned off. Will always auto-patch if you reinstall the game.

And patching. And every three weeks to update Steam, apparently.

Using it to complain doesn't make it wanted, just makes it used.

This still relies on Valve releasing modified versions of all the games that don't require Steam authentication. Some people don't trust companies in this manner.

They are all valid complaints. Bethesda clearly thinks the benefits (probably to them, not to the consumer) are worth the risk, but it doesn't make the complaints invalid.

Mind you, one and two are complaints that should be addressed to Valve, and four is entirely theoretical.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1125221-please-read-from-the-teams-at-obsidian-and-bethesda/



That post immediately follows the one proclaiming "the patch is done."

:facepalm:

Right, but I recall reading somewhere the patch was pulled back for some last minute fixes. Wish I could find the post...

It's a clumsy, annoying piece of software that serves one true purpose....Advertising.

It wasn't a post. Gstaff reported that in the Bethblog comments section.

There is certainly advertising in the store, but since you are not required to ever enter the store for any reason (except the first time you run it probably) it would be a truly lousy venue for advertising.

I don't really mind any of the things it does, it organizes my games on a nice list I can scroll through, and occasionally they have a good deal.
FO3GoTY half off and Bioshock for $5? Yes please.
I suppose I just don't get any of the "it's terrible" arguments. Never been a problem for me, so I suppose I've never worried about it.

I can't say I've found this to be accurate. I turned off Fallout 3 steam version's autoupdate when word of 1.5 breaking everything happened and steam didn't update the game until I turned it back on when 1.7 was released.

Ditto Half Life 2 and Borderlands.



Yes, this is true. It's a legitimate downside to steam.



Having to be online to download a patch does not strike me as a valid criticism. And I have not had steam try to update itself when in offline mode since... Ever. And I keep my laptop pretty much permanently offline when it comes to steam. This stuff about how steam goes online every does not ring true.

This still relies on Valve releasing modified versions of all the games that don't require Steam authentication. Some people don't trust companies in this manner.

It's a hypothetical situation that is both fairly unlikely given the current environment, and is far less likely than losing your disks to overuse or simple user error. A personal example would be X-Com. I both lost the disk and the manual (it was one of those games where you have to enter a code found on various manual pages to prove the copy was legit) and was unable to play. With steam, that wouldn't be a problem.

They are all valid complaints. Bethesda clearly thinks the benefits (probably to them, not to the consumer) are worth the risk, but it doesn't make the complaints invalid.

Half of the complaints are based on invalid premises though. "Oh, game will autopatch even if autopatch is turned off" is completely false, for instance.

People have reported it happening, here and in the Steam forums. Since it's a simple process to turn it on and off, I'm more likely to believe that Steam occasionally screws that up rather than believe that they somehow got the setting wrong.

Hence it becomes "is completely false in my experience".

if of the 30 million users of steam, a handle report problems with a specific function than, for any practical evaluation of it, it works. Especially considering we are talking about steam in reference to a game that has more buggy functions, items, npcs, and questions than they have working ones.

Little comfort to someone who gets hit with the bug and finds there is absolutely no way to roll back unless you manually back up your previous configuration before the patch is applied.

I'm not saying it doesn't svck for that person, I'm saying that the incredibly small number of peopel who may have had to deal with that problem should be put in perspective of the millions upon millions who use steam without a single problem. And those steam patches you hate downloading so much? Most of them are stability patches, because valve is constantly trying to make steam a more stable and user friendly platform.


The only people who are really screwed by steam are those without any internet whatsoever. I know a number of people in the army that can't play steam activated games because they had no internet (it was a big deal back when HL2 and then Portal launched, I forgot exactly what valve did to help).

No. It's not completely false. Myself and quite a few other people I know can't get it to work (with NV at least). If it works for you, great. Doesn't mean what other people are experiencing is false.

I'm not a 5 year old, I know where the option is, I know how to tick it, all of that. It still doesn't work. I go into offline mode and the next time I go back to online mode, that setting has RESET itself the instant it loads and starts downloading (if there's something to download). There was one person I read a post where they thought it might be related to NV's frequent (for some folk) CTD's...that the CTD caused Steam to reset the setting for some reason. I can't verify or deny that...but could be.

Still sounds like whoever made the patch is the problem.

It is the developer's responsibility to ensure the patch works on the client, Steam is not at fault. If someone downloaded the patch without Steam and the patch broke their game, could they blame their ISP (can't get the patch without an internet connection), Microsoft (they made windows, game doesn't work without it), if a friend burned it to a disk and mailed it to them, is it the post office's fault? Their friend that burned the disk?