You're faulting him for lending his strength/skill to the fight against the Thalmor (the Great War)?

The thing is he is pulling any hope of a unified force against the Thalmor, fo his own lust for the throne.

I was referring to the Great War.

Ah, Didint help much when the Thalmor captured him

Anybody here ever been in a fight to the death? Anybody?

In that situation, would you willingly forgo the use of ANY ability or weapon that gave you a better chance to win and live, rather than lose and die? Even if you were the one who started the fight, would you be willing to "go easy" on your opponent and risk death in order to make it more "fair"?

I'm a second degree black belt in what can be a fairly brutal style of martial art. If ended up in a fight where winning or losing would determine whether I was alive or dead at the end, you can bet I would use every trick and technique I've learned in order to maximize my chances of winning. And that would be true whether I initiated the fight or was forced into it in self defense. I'm sorry, but IMO in a fight to the death there are no rules. There's only living and dying. Even arguing that Ulfric was a better fighter minus the Thu'um and could've won without it doesn't hold water for me. In theory that sounds like a good argument, but in reality the "best man" in any fight is the one who's still standing at the end. Being better on paper doesn't guarantee anything - too many elements are still left up to chance. I've trained with people who are far more advanced and experienced than me, and some of them have still gotten their butts kicked by "lesser" opponents because on that particular day, things just didn't go their way.

I'm faulting him for abusing the Thu'um for his own reasons. Want to fight in the war? Go ahead, just don't shirk off the teachings of the Greybeards and Jurgen Windcaller afterwards.
But Ulfric wasn't in a life or death situation. He was perfectly capable of defeating Torygg, who has far less experience in combat than Ulfric, without the use of the Thu'um.

He was going to be. And then he failed to detatch himself. And then he abused the power of Thu'um he had already learned.

By "True Need", it means "no other way to prevail but to Shout". Ulfric was already a superior combatant to Torygg, on account of being a seasoned veteran. And you can gather from everyone else considering Torygg to be a mere boy that he was... not as seasoned. I predict a counter-argument that "Ulfric needed to make a point". Considering that the Graybeards disapprove of both sides of the civil war, I doubt they'd still approve. Furthermore, the Graybeards believe that the Voice should be used solely for the glory and worship of the Gods, not the conflicts of mortals. How exactly does committing regicide in a duel made one-sided solely because the regicide possessed the Thu'um exalt the Gods?

And lastly... should someone think to bring the "But the Dragonborn goes about shouting to their heart's content"... the Graybeards themselves say that the Dragnborn is exempt from all these rules, for their power of Thu'um comes not from learning knowledge granted originally by Kynareth, but from innateness granted by Akatosh himself.

I re-assert that Ulfric abused the power of the Thu'um, violating the Graybeard edict of "Speaking Only In True Need".

I've kinda' fought with creatures that could've killed me and won if that counts.

Ulfric is a coward. It's not honorable to take advantage of a weapon one's opponent doesn't have, during a fair duel. Not to forget mentioning, as have already been, that Torygg wasn't as seasoned as Ulfric in traditional combat, either.

If Ulfric was a reasonable man, he would've asked Torygg for assistance against the Empire, before challenging him to a duel. And as pointed out before, if Ulfric had asked, it wasn't impossible that he would've gained Torygg's blessing, especially not with Ulfric being as seasoned and charismatic as he is, capable to persuading Torygg probably quite easily.

I love how OP and a few other Stormcloak fans take absolutely everything Ulfric says at face value, while believing that there is just absolutely nothing worth liking about the empire.

You Sir made me laugh!

Works the other way, too. A couple of Dunmer complain about hardship and all of a sudden Ulfric's a racist!

I do what I can.

Never believe anything anybody says...

Unless they're a robot, a proven unbiased source, or a proven unbiased source written by a robot.
On the other side of this vast sea, we have one captain authorizing your execution inferring that the entire Legion is a corrupt band of bloodthirsty murderers.

On paper, maybe. But I don't think you quite got my point. "On paper" goes out the window in a real fight. The winner is not the guy with the best stats, it's the guy who is better in that particular fight on that particular day and in some cases chance and luck have as much to do with that as presumed skill or prior won/loss record.

If that were not true, we would not have major upsets in competitive sports, and yet we do. That's why you play the game. If a million random, unpredictable things didn't figure into the outcome, we'd feed the data into some computer and let it decide the winner and everybody could just stay home.

Their officers have pretty helmets. THAT'S RIGHT I SAID IT.

Unlfric is a puppet of the Thalmor, plain and simple. They broke him when he was captured and is now their lackey.

Look, this is not an average melee or free-for-all, it is a duel of honor between two parties and how you defeat your opponent matters as much as if you defeat them period. Ulfric's use of the Thu'um was dishonorable because it violates the philosophy taught to him by the greybeards and it was not needed to defeat Torygg. It didn't matter if it would have given him a better chance or not, it was unfair and a craven way to defeat your opponent.
Ulfric is not a puppet of the Thalmor, his actions just currently benefit them without his knowledge.
But lets just ignore that whole touchy subject for the time being...

*facepalm*

This one, perhaps, needs to read something:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1368014-spoilter-ulfric-the-traitor/

Actually I'm not one of the people that cares if he is racist or not. (It seems everyone on Tamriel is at least a little racist anyways.) Galmar is though lol. Infact I even like Ulfric a little more than Tullius. But I too feel that he is mainly just using his cause to get power for himself and doesn't care for others as much as he puts on.

And about the 'would you use anything to your advantage in a fight to the death?" post, if I went on about honor as much as the average Stormcloak likes to, no I wouldn't use Thu'um if my opponent coudln't. I kinda see that as the equivalent of throwing sand in your enemies eyes or kneeing them in the groin.

In which there are, typically, explicit rules regarding what is allowed and what is not, either specific to the duel in question or across the board within a society wherein such events occur. That is, to me, a separate issue from whether or not Ulfric's use of the Thu'um was a violation of the Greybeards' philosophy.

I have not heard one NPC refer to any rules or laws regarding how duels of honor in Skyrim are to be conducted. They might not like what Ulfric did, they might disagree with how he did it, but calling the end result "murder" does not make it so if both parties accepted the terms and neither party broke them (assuming there was no explicit prohibition on use of the Thu'um) or both parties were content to begin without explicitly stating and agreeing to any terms whatsoever (in which case use of the Thu'um could not violate terms that did not exist).

Heck, even the drunk who challenges me to brawl him in the street knows enough to say "no weapons, no magic"... but Jarls and Kings can have duels to the death and nobody thinks to say "okay guys, weapons only, none of that shouting business" before it starts? Because nowhere do I hear that any terms were set, agreed to, and then broken.

I hear that some people thought it was awful and unfair and wrong, and some people thought it was perfectly fine. All of that is just opinion unless there is clear evidence otherwise that is not tainted by preexisting bias or undue emotional involvement in the outcome. And that goes for both sides of the argument, my own personal biases notwithstanding.

If there are no terms going in about what is allowed or not allowed, and there is no single clear and mutually accepted code of conduct deriving from tradition,* then... yeah, what you got there is actually a free-for-all, because no one has agreed on what's kosher and what's not and the only sensible presumption for anyone to make is that anything goes. IMO you'd have to be a fool to enter a life and death battle and not assume that in the absence of any explicit reason to believe otherwise.

Basically, until I see evidence (or even any indication at all) that Ulfric agreed to terms for the duel which he then violated, then as far as I'm concerned the use of Thu'um did not cross the line in any "legal" sense.



*And I'm gonna say there isn't, if the varying reactions of Skyrim's people are any indication.

You sir, are a milk drinker, otherwise you should be in Sovangarde.

Ah history. So full of color. Even fictional history.

According to Torygg himself (in Sovngarde), he knew he was going to lose. Ulfric says the same thing. Obviously Ulfric had a different reason for using the thu'um in the duel than trying to gain an unfair advantage.

Torygg and his court must not have thought that, since he accepted the duel. Sybille says that he had to because there would have been a moot about his kingship. Torygg couldn't face that, so he decided to die bravely instead.

Someone has a different opinion than you? The horror.

In simple terms, Ulfric Fus Ro Dah'ed Torygg and then proceeded to decapitate him with a steel sword.

ITT: people don't understand Nordic culture. Or hate it because it's not their culture.