Does he ever say he wants a "free Skyrim" meaning he's not going to be leading it? He says he wants Skyrim to be strong and free of imperial influence. I don't see anyone arguing that Ulfric is a boy scout or Gandhi.


Nah, the Thalmor are a whole different ballgame. The empire did take over Tamriel, killing and intimidating to do it, but for instance the Elder Council holds some power over the emperor and vice versa. They weren't especially totalitarian in their day to day rule. The followers of Alessia tried to initiate a holy war, but the people put a stop to that. I really wouldn't make too much of this point. War is dirty and Ulfric is a warrior. If he had to, I think he would play rough, within the bounds of Nord honor.

So, it was dishonorable of Ulfric to use his shouting. Would it be dishonorable of him to put more strength behind his blows than Torygg was capable of putting behind his?

Also, Ulfric is a war veteran. Torygg was a groomed nobleman that had "some training" with a sword. Shouting was never necessary for the outcome of the duel, I see it as a symbolic statement.

The OP seems to think Ulfric's is the second coming of Talos or something.

One of the core reasons why his use of the Thu'um was considered dishonorable is due to the fact that since he was taught by the Greybeards he must follow their philosophy too. Since the Greybeards preach using the voice only for meditative purposes, it can be argued that using it for your own ends violates the philosophy that was started by Jurgen Windcaller himself. This may come off as hypocritical, as Ulfric places much value on Nordic honor and traditions, and his shouting Torygg in the duel violates the traditions of the Greybeards, which are very respected by the people of Skyrim. It can also be argued that since Torygg did not posess the ability to shout, it was not a test of skill that the two parties could participate in if they wished for an honorable and fair fight. Since the two posessed and knew how to use a sword, that would be a fine test of skill that either has the ability to demonstrate. It is also arguable that it was dishonorable of Ulfric to challenge someone much younger and not as versed in combat as himself, which can be seen as craven as he picked a much weaker opponent. As for the claims that a weak king cannot rule, a king shouldn't be fighting in the first place. He needs to lead, and a dead man with a sword in his skull gives does not make a good leader. Was Torygg a bad leader for making speeches about the Empire? Not necessarily, as long as he looked after his country, kept the infrastructure intact, did not abuse his power, and other things that matter more than his ability to swing a sword.

The emperor fought. Tiber Septim fought his own battles. Most medieval kings did, and were judged based on their prowess in battle.

Nordic tradition was to use the voice to absolutely demolish your enemies. It was pretty freakin effective until they went up against the combined forces of the dwemer, dunmer, and the Tribunal. Jurgen Windcaller came along after that and changed things. Despite that, there were other tongues not affiliated with the greybeards. The imperials even had a college of the voice at some point in Markarth. The greybeards are not, and never have been the only authority on the use of the voice. They're a philosophy one can subscribe to. Ulfric tried it for a bit and decided he didn't like it.

Whether Torygg's a bad leader or not by our standards doesn't matter, he's a bad leader for Nords.

Am I the only one who finds it funny Ulfric always seems to carry an Axe of Cowardice? Just something I've noticed that makes me laugh.

But is prowess in battle indicative of one's ability to rule? Take Mede II for example; he was a pretty good warrior, lead the Legion when they broke out of the Imperial City, but turned out to be pretty bad at ruling his own Empire. I'm not saying that being a good fighter makes you a bad leader, just that being a good fighter doesn't make you a good leader.
But since Ulfric learned shouting from the Greybeards, shouldn't he subscribe to their philosphy? After all, the Greybeards taught Ulfric this power in the hopes that he will not abuse it for his own ends, and his actions of killing the High King and using the voice to bring and end to the Forsworn Uprising seems like a very large betrayal of the Greybeards trust. If he didn't want to ahere to their traditions or values, he should have never gone to High Hrothgar.
Fair enough, although I disagree with what most Nords find desirable in a leader.

It causes people to flee in terror. I think it rather fitting.

One of my math teachers was a vegan. I don't subscribe to his philosophy. Does this make me a bad person whenever I do math? Living a peaceful life disconnected from the world is all well and good during peace time(When ulfric accepted the offer). Shouting came from Kyne. It's purpose was decidedly for combat when she gave it to the nords.

Only if they're level 7 or lower, in which case he should be able to kill them in one hit anyway.

Is weakness in battle?

He was a boy and it was an honor. What did he know? He does sound conflicted about having disappointed the Greybeards. But they don't "own" the philosophy, either- it comes from the gods. They even try to control the dragonborn though Arngeir admits in the end that they don't have that right.

There aren't many in Skyrim who own a powerfully enchanted weapon. Or maybe it's his lucky axe, since he gives you more powerful weapons than that out of his armory. Anyway do you really think it's relevant to just pick nits?

Like I said, it's just something that made me laugh when I saw it, like when I found a Daedric Sword in a treasure chest at the Hall of the Vigilant. I'm not really calling him a coward or trying to discredit him by pointing it out. It's just something that I find funny.

Torygg was a weak High king and Ulfric saw it. That's why he did what he did. The fact is that torygg was obsessed with the? empire. I can't possibly see him joining forces with Ulfric when he nearly worship the Empire. Go ask Sayma at Bits and Pieces what she thought about him.

Ulfric killed him in fair combat. Had Torygg spent time with the Greybeards he would too would learn the Thu'um. An addition Torygg could've very? well block Ulfrics shout by using a restoration magic "Ward". Since the Thu'um is considered a magic tactic the ward spell can block shouts... as I've seen it while I was battling out rouge mages. A High king should be powerful enough to defend himself and his people, and not weak. The weak dies so the strong can live.Ulfric proved it.

Since when gossips are considered as facts? Or I didn't know and Sayma worked in the palace?

And where did people get the thing that Torygg worshipped the Empire? From the local beggers?


Now this sounds like a fact. Not much of a Empire Worship though...

No, he wasn't. He agreed with Ulfric on a good number of points and would have been willing to listen to him if Ulfric had just asked, according to his widow, and continued to worship Talos despite the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. If there was weakness in his rule I suspect it came from a combination of youth, inexperience and being torn between his own personal feelings vs. what was expected of him as a member of the Empire.


Given how Nords feel about magic this is exceedingly unlikely. Even if Torygg knew any magic at all (which is in itself doubtful), he would never have used it in a duel like that. To do so would probably be seen as "cheating" by most Nords.

It's Sybille who says this, not Elisif. And for the nth time... if you're waiting around for a jarl to tell you what to do with your country, you're a weak king. Torygg was the product of the system that made him, and that doesn't make him a bad man, but it is what it is.

Whoops. My mistake then. Still...Sybille also says that she basically raised Torygg herself. So I think if anyone would know where his real sympathies were, it would be her.


That's not what I said. Please don't twist my words. What I said was that Torygg would have been willing to listen to Ulfric. Not that he was waiting to be told what to do by Ulfric, but that he would have been willing to listen to Ulfric's complaints as opposed to just brushing them off or ignoring them. Versus the way Ulfric frames it, with Torygg being a puppet king of the Empire who would never have heard him out.

What good would that have done, except land Ulfric back in prison? Is he supposed to read Torygg's mind? If Torygg truly did admire what he said at the moot about independence, it's up to him to approach Ulfric about it and ask for support.

Agreed. Ulfric killed him because he viewed Torygg as a weak puppet king of the empire. Talk is cheap... Action is another thing. What has Torygg done to gain independence away from the empire? If anything he should've came to Ulfric not the other way around.

Not really. Ulfric was still a Jarl and he could easily have spoken with Torygg about it when being granted an audience, he can start a discussion ask for support himself and Torygg as high King would listen. Torygg would not throw Ulfric into jail if he asked directly to support a bid for independence to stop the Thalmor justiciars from roaming Skyrim.

I think the point that was made by Stentor was that Ulfric never asked Torygg directly on the issues of independence or the Talos issue, the one time he just showed up to request an audience Ulfric outright challenges him to a duel by arms and then wins by using voice magic.

Kudos for the Nord-like response. That's all I'll say.


No one was planning to throw Ulfric into prison until he killed Torygg. (Although IIRC his behavior at the Moot that crowned Torygg High King didn't exactly earn him any favors, either. Still, nobody was talking "treason" and "prison time" until Torygg's death.)

It is possible that, had Ulfric actually brought his complaints to Torygg in a private audience, Torygg still might have had no choice (due to the Empire and the Thalmor) but to throw Ulfric back in prison or at least reprimand him. But it's equally as likely that Torygg might have listened and, rather than a divided Skyrim, there might be a united push against the Thalmor and to either secede from the Empire or drag the rest of it along in resisting the Thalmor.

That's the trouble with hypotheticals. It could go either way.


^ This. My trouble with this whole thing is that Ulfric skipped directly to the "apply flamethrower to every possible bridge" option.

IMO since Torygg was the High King, the responsibility of asking Ulfric or any Jarl to support a bid for independence falls on him. The Jarls of the other holds may be rulers of their own territories, but they are still subordinate to the High King when it comes to things that affect the entire province. The High King/Queen is the only person who is empowered to repudiate or validate the Empire's sovereignty on behalf of Skyrim as a whole. If Ulfric wants all of Skyrim to be independent, the most he can do as Jarl of one small part of it is speak up in favor of the idea (and IIRC there is dialogue indicating that he had done exactly that at an earlier Moot) and then wait for the High King to decide that the idea is a good one and act on it. If the High King doesn't agree or doesn't act on it, the only way to make it happen is to replace him with someone who will. Thus the challenge.

For Ulfric to ask Torygg to support his (Ulfric's) bid for the independence of Skyrim would be ludicrous. The only independence Ulfric could reasonably "make a bid" for would be that of Eastmarch, since Eastmarch is where his political authority begins and ends unless he becomes High King. Only as ruler of the entire country can he declare the entire country to be independent or still part of the Empire.

Really. Did you miss the whole Markarth Incident thing, when Ulfric was imprisoned as a scapegoat for the empire's Thalmor ass-kissing. And Sybille says that Ulfric's words at the moot were "just short of treason." If she thought that, then it was dangerous for Ulfric to speak out to a king who is known for giving speeches about ye good olde empire. Since Torygg obviously never brought it up with him, Ulfric had no way of knowing he was open to the idea- if he truly was. It was up to Torygg to act if he wanted independence for Skyrim.

The fact that Torygg never acts just underscores Ulfric's opinion that he is an imperial puppet and has to go.

Nope. Didn't miss that, thanks. Although IIRC that happened prior to Torygg's taking power as High King, since it was about 25 years prior to 4E 201, and Torygg is implied to have been a very young king. He would have been a child, if that, during the Markarth incident. So different government, different playbook.

I don't believe we know anything about the High King prior to him...it's possible he was a puppet king, or at least more in step with the Empire, and that's why Ulfric was tossed in prison.

Edit: Also (having just rechecked the timeline to verify the whole 25 years thing), the Markarth incident happened a year after the Great War and the White-Gold Concordat. The Empire would have been very interested in finding a scapegoat and placating the Thalmor after that.


She says that now, after Torygg's murder, which adds to her bias and gives her a reason to speak rather ill of Ulfric. Did she, or anyone else for that matter, think that about Ulfric at the time of the actual moot? We don't know.

Not at all. Even if Torygg is not responsible for the incident itself, he's supporting and promoting the same policies that led to it.

Ulfric mentions Torygg's father. He says "Torygg was a puppet of the empire, not a true high king of Skyrim. His father, maybe, but not Torygg." Obviously he had some respect for him.

The whole point is not Torygg's culpability. Ulfric didn't hate him. Nevertheless, he had to go, one way or another. The duel forced both Torygg's and the empire's hand. Torygg could have saved his own life by declining the duel and letting a moot convene to decide his kingship. He wasn't willing to do that. So, too bad.

If none of them spoke up at the moot one way or another, it doesn't matter. Actions speak louder than words, and so does inaction. Ulfric spent up to 15 years in prison because the empire, and its representatives in Skyrim, are bent over and taking it from the Thalmor. He didn't come in guns blazing at first- he spoke out about independence at the moot. Torygg and his court remained silent. That was their answer.