ITT: people don't understand Nordic culture. Or hate it because it's not their culture.

You sir, are a milk drinker, otherwise you should be in Sovangarde.

Torygg was also a worshipper of Talos who actually agreed with Ulfric on a lot of points. A puppet king he was not necessarily.

One could also argue that Ulfric's using Shouts at all was an unfair advantage. For me, for all I may like Ulfric in a few other respects, I have to agree with the Greybeards on that point. He was not following the Way of the Voice and abused the Thu'um. An honorable man who followed the Way of the Voice would have refrained from using it at all in a duel of honor unless, of course, Torygg also possessed the Thu'um. Which I don't believe he did.

Ulfric wants to change it so that it's the people that can choose their next Queen or king, and not the empire.

Torygg was also a worshipper of Talos who actually agreed with Ulfric on a lot of points. A puppet king he was not necessarily.

One could also argue that Ulfric's using Shouts at all was an unfair advantage. For me, for all I may like Ulfric in a few other respects, I have to agree with the Greybeards on that point. He was not following the Way of the Voice and abused the Thu'um. An honorable man who followed the Way of the Voice would have refrained from using it at all in a duel of honor unless, of course, Torygg also possessed the Thu'um. Which I don't believe he did.

Not really. Ulfric wants to stack the Jarls of Skyrim with his cronies so that he's guaranteed to be the next High King of Skyrim.

Not really. Ulfric wants to stack the Jarls of Skyrim with his cronies so that he's guaranteed to be the next High King of Skyrim.

We need a neutral view in this matter. All the eyewitnesses are either pro-imperial or pro-stormcloack. We should all just believe what the Thalmor tells us. Remember Ancano says that whatever the Thalmors are currently doing is for the better future of Skyrim. Here is proof that all you Nords should ditch both the empire and Ulfric and embrace the governance of the Thalmor and the Aldemeri Dominion.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594716531731990189/2E36E9DD2D146F4C1D7060F75A283AA288D3ED42/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594716531731983374/505FF21C09CC0EB04F62CB55455480918B832D44/

We need a neutral view in this matter. All the eyewitnesses are either pro-imperial or pro-stormcloack. We should all just believe what the Thalmor tells us. Remember Ancano says that whatever the Thalmors are currently doing is for the better future of Skyrim. Here is proof that all you Nords should ditch both the empire and Ulfric and embrace the governance of the Thalmor and the Aldemeri Dominion.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594716531731990189/2E36E9DD2D146F4C1D7060F75A283AA288D3ED42/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594716531731983374/505FF21C09CC0EB04F62CB55455480918B832D44/

The Thalmor are the mer supremacy who thinks they are above man. They eventually want turn man into thralls and slaves.

Heck, even the drunk who challenges me to brawl him in the street knows enough to say "no weapons, no magic"... but Jarls and Kings can have duels to the death and nobody thinks to say "okay guys, weapons only, none of that shouting business" before it starts? Because nowhere do I hear that any terms were set, agreed to, and then broken.

I hear that some people thought it was awful and unfair and wrong, and some people thought it was perfectly fine. All of that is just opinion unless there is clear evidence otherwise that is not tainted by preexisting bias or undue emotional involvement in the outcome. And that goes for both sides of the argument, my own personal biases notwithstanding.

If there are no terms going in about what is allowed or not allowed, and there is no single clear and mutually accepted code of conduct deriving from tradition,* then... yeah, what you got there is actually a free-for-all, because no one has agreed on what's kosher and what's not and the only sensible presumption for anyone to make is that anything goes. IMO you'd have to be a fool to enter a life and death battle and not assume that in the absence of any explicit reason to believe otherwise.

Basically, until I see evidence (or even any indication at all) that Ulfric agreed to terms for the duel which he then violated, then as far as I'm concerned the use of Thu'um did not cross the line in any "legal" sense.



*And I'm gonna say there isn't, if the varying reactions of Skyrim's people are any indication.

i already know Ulfric is on a personal powertrip

This.

If Ulfric was any kind of fair fighter for freedom people see him as, he would've tried to completely unite the land and rise against the oppression of the Empire/Thalmor/Whoever- with the help of other Jarls, including the High King and Queen.

Nope. He just wanted to eliminate any threat to him becoming High King. All the peasants who died thinking they were fighting for freedom? Bah. They're just numbers.

But as mighty and influential as each individual Jarl is, Skyrim's true power comes from the strength of its High King. The High King is ruler above all, and is always one of the Jarls, selected by a body called the "Moot" - a specially convened council of all the Jarls, who meet with the express purpose of choosing Skyrim's High King. Or so it is, in theory.
The reality, however, is that the High King swears fealty to the Emperor, and as Solitude is the city most directly influenced by Imperial culture and politics, the Jarl of Solitude has served as High King for generations. The Moot, therefore, is more formality and theater than anything else.

Several people pointed out a good point here , Why did Ulfric had to use a shout ..should make people wonder, not me i already know Ulfric is on a personal powertrip

Because the empire had been stacking the deck for years, buying the jarls off with chests of coin (as Balgruuf himself confirms) and hand picking the high king. The moot, for many years, has just been a show and a farce. See the book http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim:

Because the empire had been stacking the deck for years, buying the jarls off with chests of coin (as Balgruuf himself confirms) and hand picking the high king. The moot, for many years, has just been a show and a farce. See the book http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim:

Ulfric violated the Graybeard creed of Speaking Only In True Need. While Torygg could be considered a puppet, the evidence is far stronger that Ulfric is a power abuser. If Torygg was a little sissy milk drinker who knew not of the ways of War while Ulfric is evidently well-versed... why did Ulfric need to use Shouts?

I believe he was trying to show the Nords that they have power in their ancient traditions that they aren't using, and that relying on the legions has made them weak

And if I point to "The Bear of Markarth," to support arguments I make against Ulfric, you're quick to discredit it. The book you're citing (the link actually doesn't take you there fyi) is written by a Redguard who doesn't have any insider knowledge about the Moot and the selection process, and we have no information regarding the author's sources. For all we know, he got all the information from Ulfric himself.

And if I point to "The Bear of Markarth," to support arguments I make against Ulfric, you're quick to discredit it. The book you're citing (the link actually doesn't take you there fyi) is written by a Redguard who doesn't have any insider knowledge about the Moot and the selection process, and we have no information regarding the author's sources. For all we know, he got all the information from Ulfric himself.

You're free to discredit it if you like, but there are clear differences between those two books.

The redguard is an outside observer and has no motive to curry favor with anyone in Skyrim, since he says he's going home and is just there to observe. The imperial scholar writing The Bear of Markarth does not claim to be eyewitness to any of those events, and he has reason to need to svck up to the empire and the Thalmor- who are presumably his patrons. The tone of his work (in particular the final paragraph) is complete svck-up language. In short, the one reads like a propaganda piece, and the other like a travel journal. Finally, The Bear of Markarth is also contradicted at several material points by eyewitnesses. Skyrim's Rule isn't, unless there's something you'd like to offer as proof that it gets things wrong.

I just think that replacing every Jarl who disagrees with you with one who will do everything you say is the same thing, only on a localized level. Ulfric isn't trying to make Skyrim free for the people; he's just trying to make sure he's the one holding the leash.