http://youtu.be/PJVlK6FmPv4. Amazing really.

Ulfric = Boss
High King Torygg = Milk drinker that can't defend himself.

Well, if you ask Solitude Court Wizard, she'll tell you that Ulfric barged in a meeting and challenge Torygg. Torygg didn't refused his challenge, and all who attended the meeting didn't interfered too, because if they do, according to Nords tradition Ulfric would be able to dethrone Torygg. The battle runs pretty much the same as in that video, Ulfric shouted Torygg down and finish him with his sword. Knowing what happened, Rogvir opened the gate for Ulfric and got executed for "helping a criminal escape". This is the reason why I would never join those Imperial scums!

Rogvir ignored a direct order from a superior, which is treason. Treason is a crime usually punishable by death. It doesn't matter if he thought Ulfric was right or that Torygg deserved to die, he defied his commander and that is that,

Torygg was also a worshipper of Talos who actually agreed with Ulfric on a lot of points. A puppet king he was not necessarily.

One could also argue that Ulfric's using Shouts at all was an unfair advantage. For me, for all I may like Ulfric in a few other respects, I have to agree with the Greybeards on that point. He was not following the Way of the Voice and abused the Thu'um. An honorable man who followed the Way of the Voice would have refrained from using it at all in a duel of honor unless, of course, Torygg also possessed the Thu'um. Which I don't believe he did.

It's not su much that Ulfric killed him, it's the fact that he used the power of the voice to defeat him. Most people will say it was an unfair battle. Torygg may have defeated Ulfric otherwise. It's funny how Ulfric defends himself by saying, he did use the voice, but it was his sword that ended his life.

I agree that the actual events of the challenge and the duel are open to dispute and interpretation - after all, we weren't there and have to rely totally on what we hear about it, all of which is provided either by gossiping NPCs who also were not present or by NPCs who were there but have a vested interest in their own versions of the story. But I honestly don't see Ulfric's use of the Thu'um as a major problem with regard to the Way of the Voice. Had he still been at High Hrothgar, either studying to be a Greybeard or an accepted, acting member of their order, and gone to Solitude and used it in the duel, it would be different. But that wasn't the case.

I'm the Dovahkiin, and they helped me learn to do the same thing they taught Ulfric to do (altho being Dragonborn does give me a leg up in that respect), and then they let me go back out into the world to do as I see fit with it. And my use of the Thu'um is far more varied and powerful than anything Ulfric can manage. I did not have to pledge allegiance to their philosophy, I did not have to take a vow only to use it in situations that would meet with their approval. At most I get a little lecture warning me to be thoughtful about how and why I use it, and about the responsibility that comes with being free to make my own choices in that regard. I don't consider it unreasonable to believe that Ulfric got pretty much the same lecture, lol, and was cut loose just like I was.

That's insubordination.

What is more likely to be true. The people who were there, or Ulfric.

The people there are telling the truth. Ulfric challenged him, he could'nt refuse, and he was shouted to death.

Killed him with his sword, bull dung, more like shouted him to death, then stuck his sword in the corpse or as he was nearly dead.
That sort of thing makes you agree with the greybeards, in this case, about thu'um misuse.
It's not a honourable way to fight, in this case.

If he was fighting honourabley, he would have used weapons only. But honour had nothing to do with it.

And Rogvir was executed for disobeying a commanding officer, which he would be, whatever else.
He was a nasty piece of work anyway. Ask the man in the winking skeever.

Oh God...

This is turning in some kind of Ulfric worship...

I agree. Sybille's (or whatever her name is) explanation might be a bit fabricated, even though she was close to Torygg. Ulfric might be charismatic, but it is ridiculous to assume his view is unbiased. But concerning Ulfric's use of the Thu'um, he learned it while training to be a greybeard. Even if he abandoned the training, he should have been their long enough to know that the Thu'um is not a power to be exploited for personal gain. He had no reason to use it in the duel if he is truly a superior warrior.
The greybeards tell you that you are not bound by the same rules since you are the Dragonborn, and you were not required to take a vow. Ulfric, on the other hand, was training as a greybeard and recieved a much different lecture.

Ulfric violated the Graybeard creed of Speaking Only In True Need. While Torygg could be considered a puppet, the evidence is far stronger that Ulfric is a power abuser. If Torygg was a little sissy milk drinker who knew not of the ways of War while Ulfric is evidently well-versed... why did Ulfric need to use Shouts?

I agree. More likley Ulfric knew Toragg could take him, and cheated to win in the only way he could.

^ This. If you ask Arngeir about Ulfric at one point he very testily tells you that they do not speak his name in the halls of High Hrothgar. He was bound to follow the Way of the Voice (unlike the Dragonborn, being Dragonborn) and did not.

The Way of the Voice is a philosophy, one Ulfric chose not to follow. It's not some sort of absolute, universal imperative no matter how much the Greybeards would like it to be. Allowing the exceptions they do would point to a measure of hypocrisy more than anything. The Greybeards are wise and powerful, but they're not necessarily right.

The use of Thu'um in Ulfric's duel with Torygg would serve to intimidate his opponents, accentuate the weakness of Skyrim's rulers and immediatly put Ulfric himself forward as a better alternative. If nothing else it was a powerful statement. And indeed, everyone's talking about it.
Practically everyone agrees meanwhile that Torygg didn't stand a chance either way. Ulfric's challenge had him checkmate, either accepting and dying or declining and quite possibly losing the throne.

Absolutely. This is now an Ulfric worshipping and Ulfric bashing thread. The only question remaining is: will it make it to 200 posts before it's reported by a milk drinker and locked by a Thalmor?

Ah, well, my mistake. I just assumed Ulfric was there as well.


Ulfric is not a Greybeard. If he ever was, that ended when he left to fight in the Great War.

Even conceding the point that the creed still applies, which I agree is debatable, it still raises the question: who decides what constitutes "True Need"? Do the Greybeards have a meeting and vote on it? Or is it left up to the conscience the person who is doing the Shouting?


Point taken, and it's a good one.

Except that he didn't use it that way. He directed it at Torygg and reportedly knocked him down to the ground. That's where my problem with it comes in. If you want to intimidate with the Thu'um, fine. But when you're supposedly in an honorable duel, you don't use it on an unsuspecting opponent who has no recourse (IE, cannot Shout back). You'll win the fight, sure, but it won't be an honorable duel.

There's a saying about not bringing a knife to a gun fight. In this case, Ulfric essentially brought a gun to a knife fight. Not cool.

It was a test of strength.

Ulfric was a coward he knew he's never be able to win the position of High King in a moot so long as Torygg was alive. So he decided to execute the boy king and it was an execution. Torygg knew he had no hope of victory but he fought anyway. Yes Ulfric is very brave against an inferior opponent or with an army of stormcloaks a head of him. But would he meet Balgruuf the Greater to settle things the old Nord way? Something Balgruuf said he'd be glad to accept. No he sends his army instead.

Because strength is such a great indicator of what a good leader you are, right? Of course, this assumes that use of the Thu'um is indicative of your strength in the first place.

No, not necessarily. Yes.

High king Torygg fought Ulfric Stormcloak knowing full well he was going to die, he WAS ANYTHING but a Milk-drinker. Another reason why Ulfic Disgusts me
-Also the biased Stormcloak favor in this thread also disgusts me.

Uhm, I don't follow. Shouting Torygg down was the point. The fact that Torygg couldn't shout back was the point.

When do people question the honour in this, though? I mean, in-game? Is it even mentioned? Does it matter at all? Ulfric's opponents question the validity of the duel entirely, not whether it was conducted 'honourably'.
Also, going on a tangent, this comment reminds me of the honour system in Medieval 2: Total War, where you'd lose honour for going into battle with superior numbers. That's foolish no matter how you put it

The Thu'um does not require strength. It requires patience, a willingness to learn, and focus. Ulfric showed none of that when he abandoned his training to fight and when he used it in his duel with Torygg. That is not the man I want leading Skyrim.

There are still many Nords in and out of the Legion who want to remain part of the Empire because they would be weaker outside of the Empire. They are loyal to the Empire and see the coming threat from the Aldmeri Dominion who want to divide and conquer. Tearing Skyrim apart so you can become High King doesn't sit right with a lot of Nords.