That account is contradicted by Sybille Stentor.

They get to do whatever they want if they have the muscle to back it up. That's how it's always worked.

I'm anti-Aldmeri Dominion, so for the Empire!

I believe in a united empire against the thalmor.

That doesn't mean I condone the fact they tried to cut my head off, of course. After all, revenge is a dish best served cold at exactly the right time. :3

Game-play is one of the most important things (if not the most important) that distinguishes games from books, movies, or any other form of media. So no, you're not getting a free pass on that, especially considering the binary nature of this situation. When I opened up the master file for Skyrim, I found only two items on Ulfric's spell list, both of them shouts. If Bethesda was really interested in having Ulfric maintain the level of integrity that you are inferring, then they could have much more easily left the shouts off of Ulfric's spell list, but they didn't.

In regards to the other parts, what Ulfric did in the span of two and a half decades with the thu'um is not nearly as relevant as what he has been doing with it while trying to become high king. Seeing how Ulfric uses the thu'um, both when he has nothing to lose and when he is in a position to answer to no one, has been far more revealing of his true character. I didn't find similar qualities to be flattering when the thu'um was applied in duel with Torygg, and seeing a pattern emerge from these different scenarios hasn't been helping matters.

That is to say, my concern entails not incurring a divine retribution by doing something (or being associated with something) that would make the eight and one wrathful, such as using the power of the voice for something other than the glory of the divines. Ulfirc uses the thu'um to carve out a nation, ruled by him and other Nords. Merely based on appearance from an onlooker, that looks a lot like he is using his power for his own glory and that of man, which leaves me in even more of a paradoxical state than I was in when I started posting.

Since I doubt either of us will have a change of heart on these matters any time soon, I suppose that concludes our discussion.

Igmund is a silver blood? That's Simply False, so saying the Empire needs him to mine silver is false.


Sending the Axe, that is a traditional nord thing.

I don't know about you, but I stick with the guy who has Honor.

And what will honor get you? A nice poem dedicated to you on your grave?

Honorable is just another word for inflexible. They always have to do something the 'honorable' way, because god knows everything is measurable on a sliding scale of morality.

And really, what was more honorable? Trying once then attacking? Or trying all routes to success before attacking?

Honor is a cultural thing and Nordic honor is likely not exactly the same as Cyrodyliic honor. They are most likely similar, but I would be suprised if they did not differ on a few points.
Glory in battle and upholding the traditions of your forefathers is typically associated with the honor of the nords. True, honorable nords do not sneak about or spread fales rumors.
Honor as Tullius know it is likely a bit different. Honor demands he does his job as general. His job is to follow the Emperors orders and the Emperor told him to stop the rebellion. He is dependant on securing Whiterun since it is a key location and honor demands success even if he must lie to accomplish it.
One is not better than the other, but they are different enough to cause cultural conflicts.

So what does she say?

No successful political system is built entirely on force. And you don't have the right of self-determination if you're part of a monarchic empire.

I actually mean something by these facts, so please try to argue rather than retort.

Right, I mixed up a surname. That doesn't actually make your earlier description of events any less false, or hurt my point. For whatever reason, Igmund is strong enough politically that his violation of the Concordat was not harshly punished. Possibly because the Imperials don't like enforcing it, and would rather let the Thalmor spend resources chasing Talos worshipers.

Imperial!

Hmm, gee, I wonder? What side could I be on? I won't tell you, so how can you possibly know?

She confirms Ulfric's account. He approached Torygg and challenged him to a duel, which Torygg had to accept because he would otherwise lose his honor. She says that if they knew Ulfric was going to challenge him, they never would have let him in. Implying he approached Torygg like any jarl would seeking an audience, with his court in attendance as witnesses.

Medieval monarchies were not all absolutist and couched in divine right of kingship. Early Germanic kings, and English kings up through the early Middle Ages, were always subject to their barons and their legitimacy to rule could be challenged at any time. The right to challenge a king for leadership comes straight out of Norse/ Germanic history. A major fault against such an early king was that he was weak in the face of the country's enemies.

This is why I like Ulfric's character, besides the fact that he's interesting. He's a true hero in the Viking model.

And please try not to be such an ass. it's very difficult to have a civil conversation with you.

The Reachmen are Breton descendants. What do you mean by Ulfric's butchering of the Reach people? Those who resisted? I don't think that the Empire put him in charge of executing and torturing the natives. His job was to reclaim the Reach, the Empire did the rest. Most of the butchering is now dealt to the Forsworn, who are extremists. And let's not forget that the natives of the Reach are Daedra worshippers, I wouldn't be surprised if the Bretons treated the natives too kindly, either.

Um, what exactly are you getting at? Adrianne Avennici isn't a Redguard, she's an Imperial. Where ever did you get that diea? Here's a quote from Amren, an actual Redguard "...our kind get along fine." This is said to the Dragonborn if the player is a Nord. In addition, the Alik'r were sent to Skyrim in secret. The King of Hammerfell (or whoever) did not write a letter to the Jarl of Whiterun or anyone what the Alik'r were doing. All that they will even tell you is that they're looking for a woman. And they were allowed into the city, they were kicked out after an 'incident.'

Redguards and Bretons won't make their own alliance. Hammerfell is renounced by the Empire. Unless High Rock secedes, Hammerfell will not forge an alliance with them, to do so is to become allied with the Empire and the Thalmor. This is almost as absurd as the notion that the two would invade Skyrim. Is that a rational idea when there is a much more pertaining threat?

These nations aren't hostile to each other, do you think they'd hold a grudge over century-old territorial disputes. Do Germans hate French because France currently controls Alsace-Lorraine?

Hammerfell and Stormcloak-Skyrim have too much in common not to forge an alliance.

-Both have been forsaken by the Empire.
-Both are Warrior-like nations.
-Both have a distrust of Magic.
-Both despise the Dominion.
-Both are Independant.

I don't remember her saying that Torygg accepted.

It's clear that his actions weren't legal. Skyrim isn't a Germanic monarchy, it's a part of the Empire ruled by Imperial law. He knew that everyone who isn't a staunch traditionalist would take it as an assassination, and that's why hid his intent and fled afterwards.

That's a poor example. The only thing that resolved the dispute over Alsace was the unprecedented historical process of the EU, etc. None of which is remotely applicable to Skyrim.

The Reachmen aren't Bretons; that's just their CK race. They are Breton-Aldmer-Orc mongrels, and no one in High Rock would view them as countrymen.

But Igmund wasn't the ruler of Markarth when that happened. I wonder who the "we" that he mentions when talking about the Markarth Incident is (the Empire). If it was a little deal between Igmund and Ulfric, only he would've been held accountable. I doubt he would be in the position of Jarl with that kind of act of insubordination. When the Imperials dictate who is in power, they could've easily replaced him. We don't even know if he was Jarl at the time the Reach was taken. But it was the Empire's job to re-secure it, and they couldn't so they offered the job to Ulfric. I think Ulfric would be a lot more upset with Igmund than the Imperials if it was just a secret deal between the two.

She does, and she says Torygg had no choice but to accept once the challenge was issued, or else Ulfric would have had cause to call a moot and challenge his kingship.

Nords are based on the Norse, this is not only something the game is stipulating as Nord traditional law, it also has historical precedence. You said the other poster didn't understand pre-modern systems of government but this is certainly the basis.

The imperials interpret their laws as they see fit to keep themselves in power, and change them when it suits them- see Markarth, the attempt to capture Ulfric after a valid duel, the execution of Roggvir, and Helgen. Like I said, if you've got the muscle, you get to do whatever you want. That's how it always works, no matter what you cloak yourself in for legitimacy.

And the Imperials are based on the Romans. Skyrim isn't sovereign. It's a subject state. Imperial Law goes, and dozens of governments throughout history have outlawed duels.

Go watch that Game of Thrones trailer. Power maintained by force never lasts long. Magna Carta and all that. Every stable system is built on compliance as well as force. Obviously, the Empire is no longer stable, but it has only come to civil war due to the vanity of one man.

I think by "we" Igmund means his family. His father was jarl then. The imperials probably weren't directly involved in the deal, but certainly they must have been involved in the aftermath when the Thalmor were intervening. Then it was decided that Ulfric needed to be made the scapegoat.

Igmund doesn't flout imperial interests, he's an imperial man through and through. He was loyal, so he got to stay. Ulfric was convenient, and they maybe knew that he was rabble rousing for independence, so he got sent to Cidhna Mine and the imperials found a "scholar" to write a propaganda rag about him for CYA purposes.


Magna Carta is just what I am talking about- the obligation of a king to his barons. It is a document on the limitations of the monarchy. The English are from the Germanic tradition, too, and much moreso than the French and Germans (who adopted a Roman imperial model), they held on to the idea that the king was beholden to the free men of his realm, and if he wasn't living up to the job, they got to remove him one way or the other. With the sword if not by the council.

"We follow the traditions of our father's fathers. You'd do best to remember that." -Falk Firebeard, Nordic Steward of Solitude. Other than the grieving widow, it is apparant to most that Ulfric beat the High-King in fair-combat.

Except for that one time he risked Great War Redux to get his hold back.

Edit: What is this, a harmonic convergence of threads?

They do get to leave the empire based on rule of force. If you think they should be guilty for 'abandoning' the empire then you just dont understand how those things work. The idea that they 'owe' the empire allegiance is entirely dependant on the unwritten contract they agreed to when they joined. This empire did not hold up their end of the bargain so the contract is void. (i say contract in place of agreement. same thing)

I'm leaning more and more towards the Stormcloaks now. Whats cuased the shift? Numerous run ins with Thalmor "justicars" and other such scum. The Empire allows -willingly or not- these pieces of filth to accost, harrass, assault and murder it's citizens with impunity, and will actually send troops to help them do so! The Empire has betrayed it's own citizens to some foreign gestapo, and people think that the Empire will somehow "grow stonger" during this? Hell, they already spat on the Reguards and threw them to the wolves to save their own asses, so we apparently have a pretty good picture of how Imperial "loyalty" works.

umm i dont know imperials i quess since the [censored]s in windhealm treat the argonians like [censored]! i cant allow that.

It's not an unwritten contract. This isn't a democracy! This isn't a confederacy! This isn't a federation!

The Emperor has the power of life and death over every one of his subjects. They all owe him complete allegiance from the moment of their birth. Every Nord in a position of power has sworn fealty to Cyrodiil, or else he would not be in power. This is tyranny and depotism. It is not a modern political system. Everyone needs to *stop* acting like Ulfric Stormcloak is leading a national liberation movement from the twentieth century, with Woodrow Wilson and the U.N. looking on in approval. He's a traitor and his actions are illegal. Only might will make him right.

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Star Wars: Return of the Stormcloaks