Buying time doesnt work when the other side gains more than you do. The WGC makes the empire weaker not stronger.

Their treatment of Balgruuf is a prime example.
Tullius tells his 2nd to tell Balgruuf what Ulfric is planning, and embellish it if necessary.
Ulfric tells Balgruuf what he is planning directly. Some dont like that he attacked Balgruuf, but the point is he gave him fair warning not lies.

Who cares if he lied? That doesn't change the fact that Ulfric was the one planning on attacking whiterun. What's a little white lie in a sea of distrust?

They're never going to. The Stormcloaks want independent Skyrim. Any confrontation with the Thalmor is going to be a desperate defense of the province itself, not the crusade some of them may fantasize about.

That's messed up. It's also no longer true. The empire consists of Cyrodiil (parts of which have gone over to the Dominion), High Rock and maybe Skyrim.

Long Live The Empire.

Honestly, I do enjoy a good tale of redemption. However, merely saying one repents is but a first step; sincerely following through with it will test a person's true character. The reason I bring this up is because I have seen Ulfric using the thu'um, both when I fight for him and against him. In one of those instances, he was in a one on one skirmish with a Solitude town guard. These actions have undoubtably overshadowed any words Ulfric said with regards to repentance.

As for the challenging the king to high combat in order to get the Empire's attention on the banning of Talos worship, it seems that Ulfric made a horrible miscalculation. I have little doubt that his intention was to at least gain a near unified support from the people of Skyrim, and at best get the Empire to back him for the Moot. Unfortunately, the actual result ended in a fairly even split in the land, leading to a civil war in which has cost the lives of many good men and women. All the while, the Thalmor roam freely, unchecked and unchallenged.

IF IS SEE ONE MORE OF THESE THREADS I WILL KILL YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More on topic, I like the Legion.

And by 'has been betrayed' you mean, 'is a traitor who betrayed.'

The Empire has betrayed Ulfric's ideals and beliefs. Acting like that is more concrete and important that actual treason against the laws and rightful ruler of your country... derp.

I don't think that's right. You're crossing gameplay with story. They game developers programmed Ulfric's AI to use the Thu'um in combat, you can't parallel the two. If you did, than neither the Stormcloaks nor the Leigon would stand a chance against the Dominion because in-game a group of Aldmeri soldiers can easily kill 4 times the number of Stormcloaks/Imperials.

Besides shouting Torygg, the last known time we know Ulfric used the Voice was when retaking Markarth from the Forsworn, and that was 25 years ago. Although, I can understand using the Thu'um during your last stand or as you are about to crush your enemies.

If the developers considered it important that Ulfric refrained from using Thu'um, they could have just left it out of his AI. I think fighting for your life is a good situation to use the Thu'um, and Ulfric left the Greybeards because he lost patience with their inaction.


Edit: Hey look, it's my satan post.

Thalmor.
Altmer =/= Thalmor.

Thalmor were originally nothing more than a puppet goverment of Valenwood, created by Altmer primarily to fight the piracy that plagues Summerset (and were officially dissolved when Tiber Septim conquered Summerset).
After that, none of the three sides of Altmeri civil war (Traditionalist, Imperial Symathizers and The Beautiful) respected them... you might as well say that Thalmor was a joke to them.

Than the Oblivion Crisis happened and through lies and deceit, Thalmor grew in power. Soon they started slaughtering the Altmeri Kings and nobility and slaughtered every Altmer who did not support the Thalmor. If you met the Altmer Legionaire in Rift, he would tell you a story that would reveal why the Thalmor may have REALLY attacked Hammerfell (a province that means little to the Thalmor): many Altmer lived there and Thalmor wanted to slaughter every one of them. "The Great War" says that Thalmor retreated due to Redguards kicking their ass, but after this story I wonder if they retreated simply because they finished their mission.

With that said, Stormcloacks are (interestingly) not anti-Altmer. The two Altmer who live in Windhelm are greately trusted by the Nords, to the point that they would put their life in hands of the Altmer stall merchant should the Thalmor somehow conquer Windhelm (as shown by a conversation bet ween the merchant and a Talos worshipper).
And honestly, these two Altmer are all the proof that the Stormcloakcs are NOT racist (thats not to say that they are as tolerant as the Empire). Else, these two members of the race that Thalmor represents would not be in the city, yet alone highly respected and trusted.


Stormcloack Nords are just more loud (and hot-blooded) than the calmer Imperial Nords so it is to be expected that you won't get the smae impression from simply speaking to people.


State of most provinces while there is Tamrielic empire: stability and peace most of the time.
State of most provinces while there is no Tamrielic empire: anarchy and constant wars.

It is not for no reason that the Empire survived for so long (I am here talking about all five Empires: Alessian, Reman, Akaviri Potentate, Septim, Mede) and why ther are so many people in every province (even in Summerset Empire was popular... and Altmer had the least reason to like them) minus Morrowind (where imperial Authority was non-existent due to Tribunal's cunningness) who support the "Opressor".

In summary, saying that they are nothing but trouble is terrible jumping to conclusion... but than again, Stormcloacks do like jumping to conclusions.


Ulfric is definitely not a Saint. Alongside historical evidence (squashing the Forsworn Rebellion (which is identical to what he does now), slaughter of Reachmen cilivians, being a Thalmor agent (he aoon broke all contact with them soon true but the fact remains: he is not that clean concerning the Thalmor as some claim it)), but we also have few Jarl's not trusting him too much (even if they support him) and even the Stormcloak soldiers start to doubt his niceness with time (as shown through Ralof).


Of course they will have a difficult time. This is a Cyro-Nord Empire and it was always a common knowledge that majority of its army is Cyro-Nord (both in Septim and Medes Empires). If it happened in any other provinces, the rebellion would be ended soon as other races make only small (insignificant) part of the Legions. But Skyrim Civil War means that a big bunch of Empire's Legion (and youth trained to fight for the Empire) is now the enemy of the Empire. Skyrim is the province that would be hardest to re-conquer (well besides maybe Black Marsh and its "hospitable" terrain).


High Rock would want the Reach, which was given to Skyrim by Talos, back and they may not be too entertained by Ulfric's buthering of Reachmen which are a Breton people.

Nords don't seem to like Redguards much for some reason (the "Warmaiden" says she would have been kicked out of Whiterun if she were not married to a Nord and youwoul expect them to treat the anti-Thalmoric Ali'k better as well) so doubt these would two ally either.

And lets not start about how in history Skyrim was constantly violent towards these two races, ALWAYS attempting to spread its borders over their lands (and in other times helepd Cyrodiil conquer them). High Rock and Hammerfell have little love for Skyrim.

Redguards and Bretons may actually form their own alliance should the need arise (their relations have been getting better throughout history) and the mix of Warrior/Mage nations would make them a formidable defensive against the Thalmor. And since they don't need Skyrim in alliance and both have lands Skyrim took from them... it is quite likely that Skyrim would get invaded by these two... especially after Civil War weakened it.


Nords are just more straight-forward than the Cyrodiilians which tend to believe in discipline and calm preparations.
Also, if Imperials did not want to fight the Thalmor, they would not constantly speak as if they are preparing for a war against them.


Nords came from Atmora, stole Skyrim from Falmer and Aldmer who lived there and... well, thats it. Cyrodiilians sometimes claim they are descendants of Nords (to strenghten the alliance with Skyrim they had since the First (Alessian) Empire), but they are actually Nedic and were in Tamriel before the Nords came. Bretons are also Nedic.

However, first Nordic Empire (which existed alongside the Alessian Empire they helped form and were tightly connected to) conquered Morrowind, High Rock and (I think) Hammerfell so they did spread, just not south...


Seeing as Elves need more time to get back onto their feet (due to slow reproduction and usual Elven slowness), Imperials have the upper hand here...
...until you take into consideration what we know about Thalmor but Empire doesn't


Knowing Ulfric, he may invade for no other reason but to become a hero Nords would talk about for generations.
And Nords are suicidal by nature. Unless their Cyrodiilian brethren are there to calm them down, you never know what madness they may attempt after drinking some mead ; (but thats what I love about them)

The question I responded to was about underhandedness. Its not at all underhanded to attack a city in time of war.

We dont really know what agreements were made way back when Skyrim joined the empire. Im of a mind to think that some promises were made that Skyrim's ways would be honored and the empire has recently broken that agreement. Its extremely doubtful that Skyrim owes allegiance to the empire with no conditions at all.


Arthur: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
Woman: Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?

This is the point of it. By what right does the emperor require allegiance? Tradition? Or historical agreement?

There are no conditions. This isn't a democracy, it's an empire. Skyrim joined the empire because they swore fealty to a divinely-powerful warlord who led them to glory. It's despotism, just heaven-mandated despotism. Or was, to be precise.

The former for sure. But mostly because he is the emperor and you are his subject. He owns you. This is something of a problem with authoritarian government, because when the legitimacy of the regime declines, as Cyrodiil's has in the Fourth Era, it can still demand complete obedience under pain of death.

Edit: Not that Skyrim's hereditary rulers have any more legitimacy than that. Skyrim has been in the Empire long enough to claim the same legitimacy as the Jarls and High King.

from the jarl's own mouth who hired him who is a empire supporter is where u will fidn the answer, Ulfric was not a traitor right after the war, why would the empire hire him and his men and why would ulfric let himself be hired by the very people hes betrayed....just to say that the whole markarth incedent is WHEN Ulfric became a "traitor" to the Empire BECAUSE the Empire hired Ulfric and his men to retake the Reach in exchange for safe and protected place to worship talos, the Empire BETRAYED Ulfric FIRST to the Thalmor to save themselves from getting into another war to soon with the thalmor. So how is Ulfric a traitor to the very Empire that he served that betrayed and sold HIM OUT? Ulfric sent to prison for 10 years and "escapes".

He was put in prison for violating the law, then he killed his king. Pretty straightforward.

then basically because he didnt get what his Empire had promised him, hes getting his back with interest. Also he dueled his king and his king lost, Ulfric's goign by Skyrim's rules since obviously the Empire is kinda lost in that department with them saying Ok this is fine and then turns right around and arrests ya for what they said was ok. Notice why u never hear the common empire local and population even bring up the duel? hell they problemly didnt even know it took place or else there be alot less people mad at Ulfric orthinking him as a murderer.

What'd they promise him? Free dental?

When you break the law, you forfeit what is owed to you.

High Kings are elected. You can't just kill them if you shout "I challenge you!" Otherwise the loser faction would just kill the guy that got more votes.

Ulfric is using a flimsy excuse for his murder and dressing it up as ancient Nord custom. Like Queen Elizabeth trying to behead a member of Parliament for insolence. He knew his action would be taken as murder. That's why he rushed into the palace before anyone could realize his intent, and used Thu'um to kill the king before anyone could intervene.

Thats the thing though. The legitimate reasons for Skyrim joining the empire have long past. They dont OWE allegiance for all eternity no matter what. Skyrim leaving the empire is not treason.

You don't get how pre-modern political systems work.

Skyrim doesn't get to leave the empire any more than a man in the middle ages gets to be openly gay and athiest.

The Empire owed and promised Ulfric a safe place and protection for him and his men to freely worship Talos. Now at the time Ulfric was an Empire's man, loyal to the empire and the Empire that hes loyal to said sure, u retake this city for us and we promise a safe place to worship talos and we will protect you.

Then Thalmor shows up and Empire shoves Ulfric at them after promising him protection and a place to worship. Weither or not it was against the law between the Empire and the Thalmor, it was an agreement that the Empire didnt uphold.

That's simply false.

Igmund Silver-Blood offered him free worship. Big difference. He is a Jarl who routinely flouts Imperial interests. The Empire would never have allowed that deal.

Ulfric broke the law, at Igmund's invitation. Igmund got away with it because the Empire needs him to mine silver. But now he has to pay host to a Thalmor mission because he has proven himself unreliable.

It's not underhanded, but it is certaintly dikeish.

The Legion atleast tried every means at their disposal before even considering attacking Whiterun.

What did Ulfric do? He sent him an axe as an offering, then straight up attacked when Balgruuf declined. No negotiations after that. No talking at all. Just asking once then attacking when they say 'no'.

I don't know about you, but my money is on the guy who knows when to change tactics.

I chose the Stormcloaks but to be honest they are racist. Racism is simply the preventing someone from achieving something based on race. Unless there is a province where someone who is not an ethnic majority can become a ruler ie a Jarl in Skyrim then every province is inherently racist. Its not like Skyrim was ever liberal enough to allow a wise great non-Nord to rise to the position of Jarl (unless there is an Imperial Jarl that I dont know about) under the Empire's rule. Thus Skyrim was inherently racist before the civil war so Stormcloak control wont make the land more racist than it already is. Considering that my character was an Orc helping the Stormcloaks win could help in stalling a bigger problem which was bigotry. So racism was not a factor in my decision.