I like the thieves guild better than Oblivions, It actually feels like a criminal organization and not like a lame Robin Hood rip off. The plot isn't fantastic IMO, but it also wasn't great in past games.

He's right. The TG writing is terrible.

You can't even say that. Because there are like only four joinable factions. So it can only be better than 75% of them...


Want a contemporary comparison? All the guilds in FONV are better. And there are faction interactions too. And karma, so what you do matters even outside the cookie cutter interactions that things are constrained to in Skyrim.

I think its actually pathetic to that in an RPG the PC choices mattered more in the game released ten years ago than the current offering.

I rank the TG second to the DB questline in Skyrim. Then the civil war. Companions doesn't even register as worthwhile, and the Mages guild is might as well been left out of the game for all its worth.

I don't really mind the lack of a gray fox. Not sure why he should persevere or even why he would coincidentally settle in Skyrim? I don't necessarily like the hood-rat and strong arming tactics of the TG in Skyrim and it is just another place where some choice about how to execute the quest line would have been nice.

I really enjoyed the thieves guild, stopped reading the 'proof it svcks' when I saw complaining about the keg of mead been poisoned. 100% nitpicking at obvious things which do not happen in real time.
Personally I enjoyed the thief/warriors guild in skyrim much more than the oblivion versions but the dark brotherhood was a let down, dark brotherhood in oblivion is probably the greatest side quest in any RPG I've ever played.

I would like to see anybody in this forum create a half as decent storyline before they start moaning.

Don't be silly. That would require some kind of creative ability and a desire to do more than criticize people from behind the protective cover of the internet.

Not to mention that the DB armor looks like a cross between a jester's outfit and a sinestro corps uniform.

Read it. Loved it.

Yeah, he nitpicks in the beginning (but not totally absurd nitpicks, legitimate complaints) but as I read on the review became more and more realistic. There are totally reasonable complaints in there.

I'll be honest, I only played about a fifth of the TG questline... is it really THIS bad? And I thought Skyrim's quests were already lacking!

I might give it a try tomorrow. I should write a story for a DnD-group anyhow, in case we really come around to playing again. But a fair bit of warning, it might be a bit cliche. ^^

And as always in Pen and Paper, it isn't that much time constraint.

Dark Brotherhood in oblivion was better then skyrim completely put together... thats all I gotta say...

It does set an unreasonably high bar with the opening sequence.

It's no secret that, since Morrowind, the guilds have been fairly poor. The problem comes from them just trying too hard to give it a "Strong" narrative. In my opinion, Guilds should keep it simple, and let the player advance it at their own pace. Dark Brotherhood narrative style with Thieves Guild structuring.

The Dark Brotherhood never lost sight of what they were, Assassins trying to rekindle their lost fear and power, with a Subplot involving (Without spoiling anything) "Old ways/New Ways" conflicts. Of course, considering that the most talented writer in Bethesda worked on the Dark Brotherhood, it's no wonder it holds up so well.

I just wish they'd take a step back, and quit trying so hard on the guilds, that they lose sight of the perfection of simplicity.

I am not getting paid to write a good storyline.

The person that wrote the TG storyline was getting paid for it. I wouldn't expect myself to be able to write a good storyline, but hey, it's this person's job to do that. Different expectations, don't you think?


But I guess the Twilight series is proof that anyone can love a story even when it's riddled with contradictions and plot holes.

I love it when people say things like this when they have zero idea of what people on the internet do for a living.

I love it when people think that professional writers and artists are complete jackasses to one another, and that they spend most of their time complaining about other people's work.

There is a word for artists who do that: amateurs.

Or bosses, leads, managers, supervisors, directors, producers, etc.

Yeah, none of those people actually have a job that involves complaining at the artists on their staff, nor do any of them have to put up with any sub-standard work from any of the artists in their employ. They have the wonderful ability to fire people instead of whining on the internet.

I'm curious: What do you think about the article (all 5 parts of it) that eric linked up?

If the quests are unchallenging, then the problem is one of world design, not quest design. Breaking into a home and stealing something for someone else is no less fun than breaking into a home and stealing something just for you. The only difference is that when you're doing it as a quest, you get paid for your services. Some players enjoy doing these quests, just as some players enjoy repeatedly fighting bandits, or collecting oddities, or decorating their homes. If the quests are boring, then don't do them, or at least don't overdo them.

I doubt radiant quests can adequately replace individual, hand-crafted quests, but they aren't intended to either. They appear to use rather simple templates, so I do not believe they cost Skyrim much in the way of individual quests, not enough to complain about. A fair portion of players wanted generic, filler quests to supplement the finite, exhaustible stock of other quests, and that is exactly what radiant quests provide.

I think that it exhibits a decent command of English language and grammar, and that someone who spent that much time going through each part of the quest looking for problems to pick out doesn't have enough to do at work.

It's all well and good to provide constructive criticism, but a number of his complaints are so subjective (having nothing to do with plot holes) and so specific that it turns the article into the worst kind of nerd-rant. If he didn't like the questline, fine. He doesn't need to spend the time breaking it down in a way that makes it sound as though his feelings somehow became objective facts because he has a blog.

Yeah I'm not new to RPG's too, but this is my first Elder Scrolls game and the Thieves guild questline was pretty awesome, I enjoyed it.

I don't know where you've been for the past few decades, but basically all "review" type writing (book reviews, movie reviews, in this case a questline review) is written as fact. Nobody writes "I think the plot is lacking" it's written as "the plot is lacking". Go pretty much anywhere and you'll find this.

Yes. Except the tone of this article makes it clear that the writer takes his opinion as fact. More importantly, he doesn't simply state an opinion, he states something as if it's an objective, provable fact and then sets about "proving" it.

True.

Like any review, I believe he made some good points and some bad points.

Let me guess: you're studying or have studied in some video game field or something similar and you're using company resources at work to post on a gaming forum?

But that still doesn't change the fact that the only thing that comes even close to the kind of gameplay I'd expect from the Thieves Guild (sneaking and stealing) are these repetitive dull radiant quests. The regular quest hardly has any sneaking and theivery to speak of. The way things are going so far, (I'm up to the part where I have to go to Markarth to get a translation for some ancient book) I don't feel like a thief. There are no consequences to not sneaking around (ex.failing or forfeiting a bonus) and the way things are going I think that you could play this questline with a warrior type and still be fine.

The aforementioned radiant quests are only fairing a little better in the whole "feeling like a thief" aspect and that isn't saying much. Oh great you want me to break into so and so's house and plant evidence that bears no meaning to them and in the end accomplishes or for that matter does nothing (they don't get arrested or anything)? Cool!

Bearing this example in mind I have to ask: Why is this a better alternative to having individual quests that have multiple solutions (ex. routes you can take or methods that can be used) and that get harder and more complex (ex. you can't be seen by person X, you can't kill guards or else you'll fail the quest or forfeit the bonus, you know a consequence for not acting like a thief) as you proceed in the questline?

Also I semi-roleplayed a thief (before doing any of the radiant quests and not having any knowledge of what they were like or even were) and it actually a lot more fun than the radiant quests. Here is why: The reason why I was doing so was to get rich and have lots of valuable potions. It also made me feel like a thief. With the radiant quests however what is my incentive? The guild is going to get better! Oh really? Are you suggesting that doing these repetitive quests (planting evidence, stealing item Y, forging notes in tavern/inn X) over and over again (until it all culminates into the theft of an Elder Scroll) are going to make the guild better? What? Besides not doing these quests bears little effect on the guild itself. Its not like if you don't do them and decide to concentrate on the main questline the guild itself will fall apart (ex. losing members) or anything. So if nothing happens whether I do them or not and said quests are repetitive (to me at least) then what is the entire point of doing them over and over again?

*Honestly the Elder Scroll theft sounds interesting but I'm simply not willing to sit through a bunch of boring radiant quests (which really just involve me fast traveling to the designated location and doing something that, at most, takes me 2 minutes and then fast traveling back to the guild) just to reach it. I'd rather have individual and unique quests that built up to the theft (preparing gear, reconaissance, info gathering etc.) then these radiant quests.

How about you give some examples then instead of reducing to basically calling him a basemant dweller.

Bolded part is the dumbest part. He's writing a review, he doesn't like what he's reviewing... but he's not supposed to break down what he doesn't like. Every review writer writes as if their review is fact, every single one I have ever read does that.


Faintly correct.

Already have industry experience prior to present time, currently as working for an indie developer while going to school for a new position in the field, but not using work resources to talk gaming here on Bethesda forums.

So, being as I am not some "average joe" yelling about how they didn't like a portion of them game, I back up my opinion with experience. In the article I posted a lot of what is written holds a lot of water, while some points are dumb because "suspension of disbelief" could step in, many, many holes are there. For example: