In terms of this... I would take realism/immersion over freedom of player choice every time.

The College, a school of learning in regards to magic and where there is learning there must be teaching, does not teach you a thing. You have to cast your own spell to get in, and then after that it's demonstrating a single Ward spell.

The College itself is very shallow and the fact that someone can progress to the level of Arch-Mage while casting five spells or less is not immersive in the least.

By that logic because you can do the mainquest in Morrowind in 15 min from boat to cutscene the whole main quest is not immersive.Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.It is up to you.

Those who cannot do, teach.

Those who cannot teach, join the administration.

You're at the top of the administration.

It makes no logical sense that no restrictions are put on organized factions.

Being an Orc and Archmage isn't an issue. If that is how you developed your Orc, then great. Though I should note, my first character shunned the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves' Guild because it didn't fit who he was. Your Orc could have simply popped his head in there to see what was up, get access to Saarthal, and then left never to return...

The issue I have with the mage quest line is that the entire plot is seriously contrived. One day you're a student, the next day you're the archmage. I felt not sense of belonging, no sense of accomplishment, and no real sense of consequence one way or the other. It's a problem all the guild quest lines have, but is particularly pronounced in the mage and companion quest lines. In Oblivion, you really had to work for it, going from guild hall to guild hall slowly working your way up the ranks and taking your time to make a name for yourself. Skyrim feels pretty shallow in this regard.

I felt the Thieves' Guild was the biggest let down with a truly broken story.

Using the "you must be this tall to ride this ride " method only works if you go back to Morrowinds disinterested questgivers.Trebonius "Go find out about the Dwemer disappearance or don't whatev" or "umm go kill the telvanni magisters"

I cant see that sytem working with the College quest line.

Player shows up to save the day but is stopped because his healing spells takes one second to long or his enchants are three charges short of necesary according to spellcasters local 402.

To me its garbage in garbage out.If you put in minimal effort and blow through the questline thats on you.If it works for you it's your game enjoy it any way you want.
If you put in the time and effort use the college as a home do all the quests available thats on you.If it works for you it's your game enjoy it any way you want.

I'm with the OP on this one. It seems completely nonsensical to me that the guilds don't require a certain amount of proficiency to advance within their ranks. Why should mages respect some body with no skill in magic as a leader? Or fighters an assassin? Or thieves a warrior? Many complain of the guilds feeling hollow, the lack of level requirements is part of the reason.

The College doesn't give you any depth in terms of actual learning, that's one of the biggest problems with it.

It's just join, do quest, do quest, do quest.

I mean, at the very least the Thieves' Guild has chests for you to practice on.

It isn't so bad. I'm not going to give spoilers, but while you being made the guild leader didn't make complete sense, at least it wasn't so contrived as the mage and companion quest lines. What bothers me about the Thieves' guild is that even as the leader, everyone still treats me as if I am the new guy. The quest line is buggy, too. I was never able to get my guild master armor, never got my key to the treasury, lost the option to train with some of the members, and one quest never gave me the reward. Meanwhile, I had a sub quest to take care of someone's debt which stuck in my queue even after I killed the guy. I had a miscellaneous Riften quest that had me talk to Sapphire, who still acted like someone else was the guild leader. Everyone is also swimming in the cistern whenever I'm down there, and I've never been called on to do anything more for you-know-who even though it sounded like I was going to be called back from time to time. It's like they never finished it.

The Companions quest line is ridiculously short and hurried. Your ascension to harbinger is so fast and absurd, that even your guild members complain about it! You're let in to the guild's big secret--that even most guild members supposedly don't know--almost immediately. You're inexplicably inducted into the circle after what barely amounts to errands. There were miscellaneous quests longer and more involved than the Companions' one, and I felt zero sense of belonging or accomplishment.

I've done all of them on various characters, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the guild quests were rushed in so they could meet their 11/11/11 deadline in the following order: Dark Brotherhood, Thieves' Guild, College of Winterhold and Companions. In my opinion, the Dark Brotherhood has the best guild quest line in the game.

It's all a far cry from Oblivion, though. Going on any of the guild quest lines was a major investment in time. They were long, not at all rushed, and at the end you truly felt like you accomplished something. It's all very much dumbed down in Skyrim. If Bethesda spent as much time on the main/guild quest lines as they did on the miscellaneous quests (you can't swing a dead skeever without hitting someone who wants you to do something for them) and the beautiful game world, Skyrim would go from "fantastic" to "perfection."

I'm fine with becoming the leader.

But there's so many plot holes, contrived bits, etc that.... it's just so terrible.

Its where I learned most of the spells I know.There are also master level spell quests.

I am not opposed to skill checks but at some point story has to trump all.

I also agree that quest types specific to the college would improve it.There is a random encounter where a prospective student asks you to assist him with his ward spell so that he will be ready when he joins the college.
Have something similar at the college.You would tutor a student in whichever school(s) you want and your skill would determine how much that student learns.Say you need to teach a total of 100 points of learning to advance if you are proficient it wont take long if not you can teach 100 students 1 point.
Those that focus on magic will have an easier time those not so much will have to grind if they wish to progress.

But,as I said before ,at some point story has to trump all.

I don't think it is a lack of level requirements which is the problem. The quest line simply isn't long enough for you to build up your skills and abilities as a mage, and they aren't really crafted in such a way that you feel the need to use any magic to complete them. You simply can't excel at the Dark Brotherhood or Thieve's Guild quest lines without their respective skill sets, but you can easily do the mage quests with minimal magic.

Yes.

And it currently doesn't.

The College, as it stands, does not have a story that trumps in a way that makes it feel like a college, especially a college of magic.

You really don't even see students, or teachers, practicing magic in the background.

When you're around say, Solitude Castle, there's archers practicing, there's guards hitting dummies.

There's nothing like that in the College at all.

When they aren't expirmenting on me at least J'Zhargo and the Nord head into the hall of attainment to cast spells at the wall.Haven't seen the dumner girl there yet

That's just so lazy...

I had a Fighter in Morrowind who was Arch Mage of the mages guild. I think she knew enough spells to do whatever enchanting she needed.
Thief-assassin build in Oblivion Arch Mage who knew very little magic.
Assassin-fighter build in Skyrim who is Arch Mage. -- go figure.

Basically you're an administrator. Look at it that way.

It's a shame the guilds in Skyrim came out the way they did. I've been saying for ten years that ES guilds should combine the random quests from Daggerfall with the story quests from Morrowind/Oblivion. Technically Skyrim has done this, but in execution it ends up being the worst of both worlds.

Overall I'm getting sick of the whole idea of guild storylines. Every single guild since Morrowind has been an almost identical story of how some new guild member joins and quickly replaces an evil, corrupt, or incompetent leader. It's almost a joke at this point, every time I met a guild master in Skyrim my first thought was "How's this guy gonna die?" I think guilds should go back to being a hub for quests catered to a specific playstyle, rather than "epic" adventures.

At least the Grey Fox decided to retire.

I didn't really mind the no rules approach, but you've done a great job of articulating the opposing viewpoint. So, I felt you deserved the quote.
I'm fine with having to meta game, but it would be nice if the game reacted to you more (not just snappy one liners from guards).
This is true. The first time I did it, I thought I'd have to work with them. The next character I started was a "good" guy, so I told Brynjolf to F#*% off and went down into the ratway, anyway. Sure enough, you don't need them.

This. It's a bit tiring this "save the guild" for every one. Morrowind's guilds were actual guilds, were one goes because he has that trade or wants some services, associates and then can do some quests for its members. If he is good at what the guild does and proves himself worthy (and pays a fee) he can advance ranks. No "save us dear random guy who just crossed the door!" [censored].

It seems that every criticism of Skyrim on these forums ends up breaking down to people saying "MERRERWIND WUZ BETTER!!1"

Maybe that has some sort of meaning...

I was playing Morrowind 10 min ago and I am pretty sure no one “allowed” me to be the horrotor+Nerevarine. I had to carve my way up there with sword and spell. There is no non-violent solution to those quests.

Almost everyone who agreed did so because they were desperate, or because I paid a hefty price or because I killed off all who didn’t feel like agreeing.
Many things in the prophecy are open to interpretation but being foreign born is set in stone. Morrowind Dunmer see all foreign born as outlanders regardless of the race, so they would have the same hostility towards you even if you are a Dunmer.

I think it's reidiculous that the game lets you do anything, no matter what you are. Moreover, it assaults you like a rabid quest-salesman and adds stuff to your journal wether you want it or not. For example, I once walked into Riften, the picture of a noble Nord ranger and that ass Brynjolf insisted I looked like a vagrant who never did an honest day's work in his life, then practically FORCED me to join his institution. I tried everything, from killing him to avoiding Riften altogether but it's a major dissapointement. What's more, I think for every major questline there should be an anti-quest line. Like when you get the option to destroy the Dark Brotherhood. I personally would enjoy nothing more than to charge into the Ratway, screaming like a viking on ecstasy and slaughter the bunch of them!