Yes, it's simple if you feel like something in game shouldn't happen then don't make it happen. The option for your character to do anything and be anything regardless of your playstyle is more there for the evil powergamers who want to max out and do every quest I guess. Nothing is making you do that. I've got a handful of characters dedicated to different playstyles/storylines and guilds, I wouldn't join the College on any of them apart from my mage, and he won't be hitting up Jorrvaskr any time soon.

its a shame you cant svck the college and destroy it for the jarl. Down with magic!

I think this is what Bethesda has decided and it's been pretty obvious ever since Oblivion...I can't recal if Morrowind had requirements. .People demanding some sort of realismn and rationality in ES games are looking in the wrong place. The ONLY thing I think Bethesda could do to help people like the OP is to support multiple profiles in a single game. Perhaps even have a sort of party situation where you can swap between characters in the same game and you spec each as you see fit.

how is this thread not closed yet?

this is seriously arguing semantics to the nth degree.

I could also question how an Orc, Imperial, or Nord could lead the Dumner as the Nerevarine, but I won't, because really...who cares?

In Skyrim The Psijjic order proclaims you the new arch mage and Tolfidir agrees.
I see the Psijj decision sort of like the NFL draft.
They are the scouts and they see your potential.(You can in fact master all schools of magic even your berserker orc unlike the rest of the remaining faculty)
Just like the NFL draft sometimes the potential doesn't pan out.
That does not negate the fact that you the PC have the greatest upside out of any mage in Skyrim it is up to you if you are a boom or a bust

No. No restrictions based on skill. If you do not think you are sufficient skill to lead the college, that is how you feel, but not everyone else.
Speeking with the archmagister at the begining of the quest line, he tells you he only desires that the college stays focused on the study of magic. not that everyone that goes there is turned into a mage of such repute they could be the emporers new court wizard, or lead a battalion of battlemages or become a professor. Just that the college remains a place for study, and that the students follow the rules in place to keep the place safe for such study. thats it.

I am not even sure the existing archmagister was a potent spell caster. he is never shown doing anything of the sort. I do not recall any grand stories from the other mages there of his renoun. For all we know he took over ina similar fashion to the player character and has a destruction skill of 25. Honestly Tolfdir is the one that they all look up to in that regard.

An orc berserker is capable of deciding if someone broke the rules or not. An orc berserker could also forcibly remove said rulebreaker from campus if need be. Your character essentially saves the college and well, much more then that in the end. And heres the thing:
None of the quests require you to cast a spell to complete, at least not one of any real skill. the first one is simply a matter of timing, It canbe completed with a skill in restoration of 5 and the base 100 MP. The other quest that requires magic use gives you spell tomes of the appropriate spells that are specifically reduced in both cost and effect to make them feasible for any unskilled character to use to complete the task. Even in the very end, you are using an enchanted staff, and whatever combat ability you have is adequate for the remainder of that battle.

So then, what kind of nonsense would it be to require a certain skill level just for entry when none of the following tasks would require it? Including taking the mantle of the magistrate? The school goes through a real traumatic series of events including deaths of some of its most important members. You saved the day, and lead them all through it. You have already proven your leadership abilities, both through deed and initiative to do the deeds. The game is written to support this, be it through the quests, the dialogue and even some of the not so apparent stuff, like how Tolfdir seems to be more of a mage then the archmagister.


On another related note, my own orc warrior will not do the thief quests, or be a nightingale or whatnot. it is not his nature. To him thieves are dishonarable trash that deserve bad deaths, and if the game allowed he would annihilate the whole guild and flush the ratway clean. that would be my choice, loss of quest possibility? Dont care on that character, its part of the immersion. Its all very similar to the magic lines- dont do them if it doesnt make sense to you.

I am constantly amazed at the players who refuse to role play or use any imagination whatsoever on an TES game, and beg for more hand holding and limitation to a series that was built on freedom of choice. The times, they are a changin I suppose from the days of Daggerfall and Morrowind. you know, I think bethesda should release battlespire soon. Now there is a game from TES that people like this would like. No free roam, just complete the games "levels" and work towards the end in a straight line. Well, no, theres no pointy grey arrows in that game to solve the puzzles. probably wouldnt like that either.

it is semantics, but people get fired up because of implecations for future releases.

lol, also to your morrowind reference- you could question that. AND the game allowed you to ignore the main quest, though the opening dream sequence is unavoidable. Still, you need not do anything but fighter guild or the like on the Orc, Imperial, and Nord if you chose. I know the only time I finished the MQ was on a Dunmer, lol, but that was coincidence not because of some Rp hangup I had. But the possibility was still there, still built in. people are fired up here because some players want it to not be built in anymore.

I completely agree with you.

I can't kill Ulfric as soon as I meet him in Windhelm.

Game doesn't allow me to play how I want to at all.

Exactly. It seems that people rip on Bethesda for "lack of choice" becuase there isn't an explicit choice for the player - yes or no? In other games, it may have that, but in Bethesda games, if you don't want to do something, the game doesn't ask you if you don't want to do it; you simply just don't do it. You shouldn't need the game to ask you if you do something or not - you should just take initiative and simply not do it. People don't realize this, so they rip on Bethesda for "lack of choice" (not ripping on you op) when the choice has been theirs all along.

Because nerevarine was supposed to be foreign born according to prophecy?

You should be a magical badass if you are an arch mage. Beth didn’t do that because it would make many people cry.

WHADYA MEAN I NOT SMYART ENUFF??? ME CRUSH YOU!!!

This is ridiculous. This is why quests should give DISPOSITION, which should not automatically translate into rank advancement. Being on good terms with an organization does not mean you should be accepted as a member, let alone promoted through the ranks.

All guild questlines should be gated by disposition and grant organizational disposition, while individual members give quests to improve personal disposition. In order to advance, an individual must meet the skill requirements of the new rank (sliding scale, set by disposition scores) as well as meet disposition requirements. This means an individual with high disposition with the guild and with guild members could advance without magical talent, it would be limited to lower ranks and be slower than a magically inclined candidate.

In addition, ranks should not be tied to the storyline directly. Being an Evoker should grant several perks (see Daggerfall), and grant easier access to information or modify the radiant quest list, but should not be referenced by the storyline in any way as far as automatic advancement for completing various quests.

The entire questline system was done by someone with no clue. Honestly.

To the exasperated ones.

Do the chars you use for the mages guild have the skill set that you believe a mage should have or do you use your berserker orc char for the college quests?
If you just use mage types the system works because the Psjj realize that you have the capability to equal or surpass every one of your teachers at their particular specialty and that even the Elvish mages will never be able to be as skilled as you are capable of becoming.Whether you actually do or not is not important the potental is there.

If you use your orc berserker the hush up you are just like us then.

Morrowind did this right, but perhaps just slightly too extreme. Something similar would be welcome, imo.

However, I'd understand if an orc warrior who is dovakhiin becomes the leader of the mages guild. The voice is ancient magic who no-one else knows, and since you are the person who gets things done around there, you as leader makes sense.

I'm pretty sure the prophecy was entirely based upon "maybe's" and "perhaps", but I suppose if we disregard that, you'd be partly right.

where you are still wrong is your comprehension of what I'm trying to express.

the practicality of someone that is not a Dunmer being regarded as the leader of a race of people who are largely xenophobic to the world as whole, just isn't something that even suggests itself to be slightly believable. it's obvious that this was a opt out by Bethesda in order to allow the player to be what ever race they chose.

discussing the practicality of things in the Elder Scrolls has always been pointless, however. player choice proceeds itself over everything else at all times (A dragonborn Orc helping Ulfric Stormcloak, a known racist in the war against leading other races out of Skyrim? being the leader of four factions simultaneously? Dagoth Ur being level 30 and Vivec being level 100 yet the game tries to express how much "weaker" Vivec has become compared to the main antagonist?). generally the ENTIRE series is about dispending your disbelief to aspects of the story in favor of diversity of gameplay.

I think a middle ground would be the best way. Instead of making skill requirements or the way it is in Skyrim now, make magic a requirement in quest. Certain barriers could only be opened with high enough magic skill or enemys could be immune to non-magical damage(the simplification that ethereal beings like ghosts can be hurt with a normal iron sword is another topic).
this way you solved two problems with one solution: You have to have skill in magic to progress and the quest are getting better, because most people surely expect to deal with MAGIC when they join the MAGE guild

no, to all of that.

practicality doesn't come before player choice.

this really isn't an issue that deserves attention, and really continues to show the disdain in the Elder Scrolls community of forgoing things that are largely nitpicking matters (wha- you mean to tell me spell crafting isn't in Skyrim even though it was barely EVER discussed or used by anyone in Oblivion or Morrowind? huh, you mean to tell me levitation is gone and I can't accept that because I'm incapable of reading and educating myself into realizing that it was taken out because of the cells incorporated into the series after Morrowind? howcanitbe, where are the spears? I want spears in my Elder Scrolls. whatblasphemy, where is my pointless, speech craft minigame? Elder Scrolls just ain't Elder Scrolls without pressing "persuade-->bribe 100/1000 x100" or "joke/insult/admire/boast x100"!) that aren't going to really lend itself to the any future installment in any significant way.

generally the entire series falls under a pattern of unorthodox complaints:

Morrowind is released, is generally regarded as being too "slow" and "shallow" compared to Daggerfall.

Oblivion is released, is generally regarded as being too "fast paced" and "appealing to the mass audience." compared to Morrowind.

Skyrim is released, is generally regarded as being too "player-oriented" and less "appealing" to TES lore fanatics as compared to Oblivion.

lets face it, the TES community largely relies on nitpicks to consolidate arguments, which is silly within itself.

How about have the reward match the skill level.If a player is just doing the questline with the unskilled berserker orc the reward would be meh.If the player is fairly adept at magic it would be better and if the Player was Gandalfeque they would get the best reward possible.

The one playing the orc wouldn't care as they were just seeing what was what,The fairly Adept player would get something useful and Gandalf as a reward for his effort would get what he deserves

Well to be honest, I was very surprised when they made me the arch mage, and I was not really sure what they meant, as I am an Orc Barbarian, but I just presumed that I could eat them without prejudice or bounty.
Then I discovered that some of them won't die, so I moved into the town.
The guards there don't seem to mind, indeed after a few weeks they come back!

but your warrior knew in the beginning that he had his first lesson in MAGIC and how did you beat the draugr in saarthal as a non-mage? does normal hitting work or what?

hell.. even before the first lesson you know what is going on, when she says something like "you are going to sleep here together with the other STUDENTS"

but after the first magic lesson, even the most [censored] warrior should know: "oh, this is a mages guild lulz"

With all respect, you do not speak for me.

It's you who build your character. Maybe he became crippled after a battle, or catching a disease; use your imagination and have him live the life a mage instead of that of a warrior.

Ah.. this is easy! You have to complete a quest in Saarthal, but find you need a key that can only be given by joining those Milk Drinking mages!
Nothing that can't be fixed with a big old axe, but restraint was required.
I realised that the only way I could complete the Guildur quest was to pretend to join the mages, so I went to the college, spat on the ground to enter, got the first quest, went back to Saarthal and did what they wanted of me.
All this time, I was only thinking of my stomach

At the risk of getting myself into something I can't escape without being burned....

It seems to me that both sides of this discussion are right in their arguments, or at least they don't seem to be completely incompatible.

I think the developers were onto something when they decided to remove skill requirements from guild advancement. Rather than having an artificial limit imposed on your character (i.e. skill requirements), it is a much more elegant solution to simply ask from the character to posses certain abilities (that obviously have to be used) in order to progress through the guild quests. In this particular case it is simple, the college deals with matters of magic (for the most part), so magical abilities are needed to act in its stead. This way any limitations in the character's advancement would have been elegantly integrated in the nature of the quests themselves. This vision, I think, respects both freedom of choice and roleplay consistency.

Of course this is not the case; for some reason that I cannot grasp, the developers decided not to build upon that concept and so the guilds in this game ended up being seriously underdeveloped. I suppose time constraints are to blame here, whatever the cause for them. Personally, this is the kind of thing I would like to see implemented with mods. I want more, much more in the guilds. I'd like them to branch out and grow story-wise; I'd like to feel the immersion of roleplaying that guild; I'd like to be part of the nature of the guild.


Skyrim, personal preference aside, handles many of its roleplaying elements very differently than its predecessors. In my opinion the basic ideas behind these changes have great potential and are not at all bad, just not developed enough. A shame, really.



Edit: just trying to stay on the neutral side.

Yes, normal hitting works fine against that Saarthal draugr boss. I simply walked up to him and hit him a few times, the same way I've killed every other draugr so far. As for the lessons, my warrior (wasn't an orc but that's an irrelevant detail) isn't outright anti-magic but just not very good at it and never really cared to be either. Had base level magicka and very little skill with spells. Only spells she ever used were candlelight and the odd bit of healing.

She was quite aware that this was effectively a mages guild, but so what? Free food, free drink, and a warm and comfy bed. And it's all free of charge. So what if she had to attend a few boring lectures? Why should that scare her away? As I said, not outright anti-magic, just not very good at it. Casting a basic ward? Well, okay, I suppose I can keep it going for about seven seconds, max. Now hurry up and attack me, dammit! Oh, that was the lesson? Well, easy as pie, wasn't it?

At that point, was there any indication that she'd be arch-mage a couple of days later? Nope. Then comes Saarthal, and with that the major plot device. Then you find books on the plot device and after that things go bad really fast. But the thing is, at no point was my warrior ever required to use anything but the most basic spells and at no point were she aware that she'd be promoted to college boss.

Did I, the player, suspect as much? Of course I did, but then I suspect many things. Acting on all the things I suspect is meta-gaming, however. And insisting that I have to meta-game to avoid ending in RP-unfriendly situations is just silly. Fact is, the mage college should not accept clueless, unskilled noob mages as their new arch-mage. I mean, arch-mage. ARCH-mage. Arch is not the Greek word for "complete noob", after all. I don't know why the whiny casuals and kids (and I'm not talking about you, Rektoh) insist that any idiot should be allowed to become arch-mage regardless of how unskilled he is, but it sure isn't helping the game world make any more sense. I suspect, however, that it may have something to do with an utter hatred of actions having consequences. Actions such as not having bothered to practice magic at all, by the time they randomly get the urge to become arch-mage.

oh, and in response to those "derpa-herp PLAYER CHOICE!!! hederp" comments, please do realise that unless the world changes to react on player choices then those choices end up being pointless window dressing. Having a world that looks at the player and reacts differently depending on what the player has done and who the player character is, is what allows player choices to actually mean anything whatsoever. Conversely, if the world is always the same, no matter who you are, then what's the bloody point of making any choices? What does it mean to be arch-mage if there's no requirements for the job whatsoever? If everyone can be arch-mage then what's the least bit cool about being arch-mage?