Hand holding? Limitation? Having a guy say "no, if you haven't enough skill in at least one school of magic you can't get a higher rank in this magic studying institution" or "you only know bam bam smack slash, you not great guy here because you not mage" isn't hand holding nor limitation.

If I'm a poor and homeless adventurer and I am in Winterhold, why wouldn't I ask for work there? They teach me a basic spell for free, and then send me to a place where I can find great rewards and I can just slash my way to get them. Why a poor, homeless axe-wielder has to run away from a basic quest where he can get money and where he can use his preferred means to do it? Then this guy is forced to save them and become arch mage, because who wants to let the world explode or those mage guys die, if it's a kind and good-hearted person?



If I don't WANT to lead the college, but I have to do it anyway. And of course not everyone is turned in the mightiest mage ever. But that doesn't mean that the no-brain guy is the best leader they can have. If you know nothing about magic, you're going to be easily decieved by those who do know how to use a spell. And if you doesn't know anything about magic, you won't be able to administrate the school as well as a guy who knows what the students need to study.
And they had known me for a week. How do they know that I am a good guy? I might have saved them simply because I thought that then I could influence them to do my will. And how do they know that I know how to manage and lead anything? I might be the dragonborn, but I might as well went to Winterhold just after I scaped from Helgen. Nobody knows I'm Dragonborn.

Bethesda still hasn't learned that the overall satisfaction someone feels from accomplishment is proportionate to the amount of work and effort it takes to achieve it. Hence, when you can become arch-mage without really even having to work at it, it becomes a rather meaningless achievement. The CoW arch-mage is practically handed to you obviously because its a worthless position handed to just about anyone who wanders in.

you are saying that MAGIC shouldnt a have a place in the MAGE guild and we shouldnt have to perform working spells to advance in the guild quests, just so everyone can see everything in the game with one character?
I really cant take you serious

If you haven't visited the mages college until you need to do so as part of the MQ you get new dialogue options and they grant you membership without you having to cast a spell, stating they can learn a lot from you, as you're dragonborn. Doesn't seem that far fetched that they respect the voice as a form of magic, even if you're a grubby axe wielding orc.

Players are free to do as many of the radient quests as they see fit to justify their "arch-ness". If you choose to do zero, you are choosing to make the quest line shallow and give up all rights to complain about it. If you choose to do 500, you give up rights to complain about the repetition. Skyrim is pretty much what you make of it.

Because it's a poorly designed RPG.

They removed the restrictions in Oblivion and made the same mistake with Skyrim.

Let's be fair, in Oblivion you were taught spells and everything was done to hammer in the fact that you were an aspiring mage hoping to gain access to a prestigious institution on magic. Your own personal mage's staff, spellmaking and enchanting services, being taught unique spells, helping guild members and so on.

The College in Skyrim is bland.

You are taught spells in Skyrim too. You even need to show that you can cast magic before they let you into the college. However, there could be so much more to it, but there isn't and thus you can end up being a warrior arch-mage who has only ever cast a single firebolt and one ward-spell in hsi life.

It does? I managed to get Esbern's help without doing more than buying some info from the owner of the Ragged Flagon. I killed every non-essential thieve's guild member in the warrens, and never agreed to ANY of Brynjolf's requests.

I kinda like that you can become Arch mage without magical skill. I see the job of arch mage as being more "enforcer and ambassador" than "scholar". My character also excels at alchemy and enchanting, despite being abysmal at spell casting of all sorts, so can hardly be called "ignorant". He's also met more powerful daedra than the schools best conjourers, killed more undead than their best restoration expert, etc.
It's not like just any barbarian can come along and get the job; you get it under VERY special circumstances that will NEVER come up again.

Should the Companions also not allow you to join and advance if you kill things with magic instead of weaponry?

While I enjoyed Morrowind, in that game advancing skills as a pre-requisite made some sense, because skill advancement was tied to your class. Given the class-less system in Skyrim, I can see why they did what they did with the guilds. Of course, I can also see the argument for making advancement in guilds tied to skills, because then "high ranking Winterhold faction member" would actually be a class... which I suppose is good, if you like character classes. I don't. In fact, I rather loathe them, and only tolerate them in table top RPG's out of convention.

What happened to certain guilds being locked out when you pick a Guild Todd?...

I also loathe that you HAVE to join the Thieves guild for those damn stones of Barenziah... And your FORCED to join or kill the Dark Brotherhood to get the wordwall, your also FORCED to join the Mages guild for Sarthaal and FORCED for the word wall with the Companions...

So much for freedom of choice eh? The playing being able to do what they want... This game is less free then the others =(

The prophecy stated the Nerevarine would be born to uncertain parents, not Dunmeri parents and it was well known he'd be an outsider. Besides, it's not like Lord Nerevar was a Dunmer himself. It actually makes more sense for the Nerevarine to not be Dunmer. Especially when you consider that the Chimer were cursed to be Dunmer largely because of what they did to Nerevar. Why should the Nerevarine share in that curse?


Like the practicality of the Dunmer to join the Empire through a treaty and not even have to be conquered isn't believable? The Nerevarine could've been a Sload, it's doesn't matter so long as he fulfilled the prophecies and passed the seven trials.


Umm, so those guys up at High Hrothgar were doing what exactly? Plenty of other people know it; in fact, there's supposed to be an entire college dedicated specifically to the voice in Markarth.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_College_of_the_Voice

Just because it's magic doesn't mean it's a type of magic that the College of Winterhold studies, because they didn't. It'd be little different than letting someone join a baseball team solely because they're good at basketball. They're both sports right?

Edit:




That would be an Arch-enforcer or Arch-ambassador then. Arch = principal or chief. Synonyms with foremost, dominant, first, grand, master, sovereign, supreme. An arch-mage is the best frelling mage that the place that named them has. Not a mentally challenged orc enforcer that can't cast any spells.


Yes considering they are a warrior guild. If you have no knowledge of warrior skills then they shouldn't make you their leader either.

your interpretation of the prophecy as a whole is largely flawed, so arguing with me when your comprehension of the matter isn't even entirely guided on established lore doesn't really make your opinion on the matter anymore well grounded.

the part in bold is completely ignorant to my matter regarding practicality as well, as it still remains to be said: an xenophobic race isn't going to suddenly renounce all racist tendencies and then allow someone not of their birth to "lead them" to salvation.

an Imperial driving the Empire out of Morrowind to restore the glory of the Dunmer doesn't make sense.

an Orc driving the Empire out of Morrowind to restore the glory of the Dunmer doesn't make sense.

a Nord driving the Empire out of Morrowind to restore the glory of the Dunmer doesn't make sense.

it's as ludicrous as suggesting the Dwemer would have allowed themselves to be lead by Nerevar through the basis of an "uncertain" prophecy.

Dude, if you're concerned enough for it to matter, don't do the questline. It's really that simple.

Generally when people just proclaim something wrong without actually pointing out where it's wrong and countering it, it's because it's not wrong yet the person doesn't wish to admit they made a mistake.


Just like a xenophobic race isn't going to suddenly renounce all racist tendencies and sign a treaty joining another races Empire without having to be conquered and allow an Emperor that is not of their birth to lead them right?


Did one of the Dwemer's chief gods lay down a prophecy that this would happen after cursing them for betraying Nerevar?

There is a particulary good amulet that forces you to do the mageguild quest line.

the flawed comprehension is obvious (and is still obvious if you consult back to my previous inquiries on the matter), as you completely ignored all topics I introduced in my post on the last page in favor of referring back to past events which in no way make the idea of someone who is not of Dunmer heritage leading the Dunmer to salvation anymore sensible.

and by the way...using the pact formed by the Empire and Morrowind as an "example" of the Dunmer's "leniency" is absurdly silly considering if the Dunmer weren't as Xenophobic as they are, then suffice to say, such a treaty wouldn't have even been needed.

This isn't a "MW was better" thing so please don't make it sound as if it is. It's about having some logic to a faction that is gravely missing it.

Who cares about how many spells you know? In either MW and OB it wasn't the number of spells, but competency in the schools of magic, as in your understanding of them. You don't need a zillion spells to demonstrate competence, you just needed a high enough level in magic skills (ie destruction, restoration, conjuration etc) That would have made particular sense for skyrim especially where you are specifically enrolling into a college as a student. They are minimal so as not to be too obtrusive, but at least their is some thing there.

To graduate in a magic school you should need some degree of competence in magic... not with swords, that is simple common sense. Without that your char was just a mercenary, he should have been payed and thanked for his services, not graduated and made Dean of the school.

No, it was there to make sure that your rank up made sense within the guild you were ranking up in, and it was there to balance out that sense of specialized guilds in ways that the quests themselves could not always do since technically most quests can by done by any type of char.

I'm sure it has been said before but I'm too lazy to read this whole thread so;

You are Dragon-born, you know, you were born magical.

As far as I can tell the game does not force you to become a mage, you can complete the MQ while completely ignoring the CoW

It is a college, not a guild, you can study magic, I'm fairly certain a dean of a college does not know more about every subject than his professors.

Lastly, why are you playing the magic questlines if you are not magically inclined.....

I'll repeat it: The SuperSlasher3000 doesn't know the ending of the questline, nor its details. He only knows "hey, they want me to explore (and perhaps be a bodyguard) that cave" and "hey, they want some books" and "hey, they want a staff" and etc. That is a thing a warrior/mercenary woiuld do, seeking for payment and fame. But then, bam! He is Arch-Mage without wanting it. And no, he can't avoid it because HE DOESN'T KNOW THE ENDING. It's the problem with RP, you must stop thinking of what would you do and think of what your char would do. This includes forgetting things like the reward of a specific quest or what will happen after saying this to that person (unfortunately this last thing doesn't matter in Skyim).

Again nothing specific. "You're completely wrong, it's obvious." Yay, this is fun! The only topic you introduced on the last page (besides attempting to ignore the actual prophecy in question "I'm pretty sure the prophecy was entirely based upon "maybe's" and "perhaps",")was the "practicality" of it. Which I have addressed. It's about the same practicality of them voluntarily becoming subservient to the Empire. If they were as wildly opposed to foreign rule as you suggest they would have fought and died to prevent them being conquered by the Empire; not sign a treaty with no war needed at all. Edit: Some of them actually did feel that way, committing suicide instead of helping to rule an occupied nation. Obviously, those people were far outnumbered by the rest, yet you expect us to believe every single Dunmer is like them. :Edit


It's an example that, despite their racism, they don't hold that above all else. When they realized they could not repel an invasion, they signed a treaty with the Empire. When they realized that even through their persecutions and killings of many previous so-called Nerevarine's and their attempt to do the same to the actual Nerevarine that he wasn't dieing and was actually fulfilling the prophecies despite them and House Dagoth trying to stop him, they called him Hortator and hailed him as the Nerevarine.

They do sort of have that, when FORCED... lol...

If this is refering to Morrowind the only thing you were locked out of was you could only get one of three house strongholds(two with a cheat)
The rest may have required some finesse but you were never locked out if you didn't want to be.

The mages guild seems to be the only guild in Skyrim where any joe shmo can join and be effective. The thieves guild actually requires players to have fairly good thief skills (sneaking, lockpicking, pickpocketing) since vast majority of guild jobs rely on those skills. The college of winterhold however doesn't have much in the way of requiring players to use magic, except for that one quest in the Dwemer ruin. If the mages guild followed the example of the thieves guild and offered lots of jobs that required skill in magic, that'd be more balancing I think.

That's exactly what I did!!!

But I really hate the way the game mixes questlines so it forces you into one quest line to finish another. Since this is Skyrim General I'll not too much info, But my warrior found a quest where he had to find 3 items. He found two of the items, then said great I'll go to the third location -- but it was locked. After trying to find a way inside in-game, I peeked at the wiki -- opps you have to join the Magic College. Well my Nord warrior doesn't want to do that, so I have to give up the quest half done.

Same with several other quests, can't go into them here. I start them, and then find I'd have to do something out of character to finish them.

And as far as the College of Winterhold, I do think there should be magic skill requirements to progress. Like in Morrowind.

too much freedom with no logical restrictions means poor game development.

joining the mage's guild is fine, since, we all start with some magic. advancement without magic skill leveling is absurd and directly beth's fault. very straightforward stuff.

to have to "roleplay" everything in skyrim to make it work is becoming incredibly tiring. for me, skyrim FORCES me to roleplay because its deficiencies become overwhelming. beth's shoddy work becomes to clear.

i like the rping, but, that "argument" just doesn't hold after a certain point.