So my next character will be an orc, light armor, quick on his feet, agile but battle-hardened. A good character that will fight if attacked and for the oppression of others. So as the dragonborn he isn't going to be treated normally by anyway, nor is he going to experience much prejudice himself.. Waiting for patch 1.4 to start him, and I want him to be stormcloak.

The storm cloak idealism is 'skyrim for the nords', with quite a few stormcloak members being opening racist against certain groups of mer, due to the past conflicts with the thalmor.

The empire is pretty much a toy at the thalmors disposal, the thalmor show strong religious discrimination to the extent of genocide against any talos worshippers.

I don't have that much against the empire (apart from trying to kill me), but I dispise the thalmor. So it seems the decision is down to racial vs religious discrimination, which isn't a choice I would make as my character, who like me, is highly against both.

But the extent that the empire (thalmor) go to, hunting down and killing a certain religion for me is far worse than what I have experienced from stormcloak prejudice. I understand many members of the empire are against killing talks worshippers, yet they do nothing but stay a weak puppet of the thalmor.

So it seems the stormcloak is the lesser of two evils, plus it would mean removing the thalmor from skyrim. I also like to think that my orc (of mer decent) would act as a figurehead for the stormcloaks, possibly easing the racial hatred that some of them have.

What are people's thoughts, anything to say for/against what I have said?

Nord racism has much more to it than the Thalmor problem, and it started long before the Thalmor were even a thought in the back of someones head. Nords hate elves period, its been that way since Nords first came to Tamriel. And thats because elves slaughtered the entirety of the first human population in Skyrim save for Ysgramor and his two sons. And with no provocation either. Since then, Nords have been conflicting with elves. Particularly the Dunmer, and in more modern times that hate is being geared towards the other mer seeing as their home provinces now reside within the Dominion.

As far as I know, the empire doesn't hunt down people for the religious beliefs. They're just wussing out and letting the Thalmor get away with it. It's not that big of a difference, but it is a difference. Some of the top imperial officials are talos believers themselves.

The empire aren't the bad guys so much as they are the weak guys. Siding with them is about ultimately kicking them into shape. Or so I think. No matter what side you go to, I'm pretty sure Empire or Cloaks will have boosted morale to take a fight to the Thalmor.

I think you are leaning the right way. To me the Empire feel like the enemy right from the start.

This should be in the spoiler section.

empire /= thalmor


many ppl don't really take the time to really understand whats going on on both sides. there is no real good and bad side. they are both good sides, depending on your point of view.

Skyrim for the Nords doesn't mean actual Nords. It just means the Men of Tamriel: Bretons, Redguards, Nords, and to some extent, Imperials (although because of the Empire, relations are not that good). The Elves are the target of their hate and for good reason. When Men first came to Tamriel, the Elves killed quite a lot of people for no provocation.

Also, many of the Elves, especially the Dark Elves and High Elves, think they're above Men. The Thalmor are an incredibly evil faction so it's understandable. Kind of like the prejudice against the German people after Hitler's regime. It's eased now after 60 years but fresh out of the war, you can understand that.

As for the Stormcloaks themselves...they're the key to having a new start. You side with the Empire, you put them on life support. The Empire is a crippled force while the Stormcloaks are in their infancy. The Empire can't do anything except slowly kill itself while the Stormcloaks have an inifinte amount of variables to grow.

That's because they tried to kill you and unfortunately that's one of the main reasons people don't join up with the empire. The opening is just an ode to how bad Bethesda is with exposition and narrative.

Bobjim, your thoughts are almost identical to my own. I am still on my first playthrough (160 hours in), but I decided to opt for the Stormcloaks as well. My opinion changed a few times at first. First I wanted revenge on the empire for trying to kill me with no justification. Then I met a few racist stormcloaks and was swayed the other way. Once I found the Thalmor were basically running the empire though, that sealed the deal. Like you said, it is clearly a matter of the lesser of two evils.

Neither side is full of warm, fuzzy characters who want to sing kumbaya with the world, but I think that is what make it most intriguing. I prefer the morally ambiguous dillemas to those that are clear cut black and white. It really made me think about choosing sides before I just jumped in, and there were many times that I wondered whether or not I had made the right decision. I have yet to complete the quest line, but for now I am confident in my choice...

I don't know huge amounts about game lore, I was just going on the reasons I know for the racial hatred of mer by nords. So if my character wasn't the dragonborn I suppose they would impose prejudice against him for being mer, but they wouldn't go to the extent of killing me like the thalmor wold talos worshippers.

But that's exactly it, they sit back ignoring their own beliefs and go along with the thalmor, who slaughter the people that worship talos. If I had the option to fight of the thalmor as a member of the empire, I would probably lean more towards them. I don't have that option in game though, if I side with the legion the will still be a weak puppet of the thalmor who slaughter people worshipping talos, the man/god that quite a few imperials believe in.

Like them or not the empire is the only one to stand against the thalmor. Yes, it would be good for the storm cloaks to win their independence from the empire in the short run but in the larger scheme of things the thalmor would gain an upper hand in the division and mostly likely war and win against the empire. Then after that, the thalmor would not doubt continue their conquest of all of tamerial including skyrim and they would undoubtedly be unmatched.

I like to think my orsimer would try to impose racial tolerance to friendly innocent mer. Prime example for me would be the dark elf in windhelm, as you enter the city she is being accused and attacked by some nords, this is something my character would be very against.

As a figurehead for the stormcloaks, dragonborn and leading figure in liberating skyrim, I feel my character would have that right and would make a strong influence.

that's why i picked the empire.

the win of ulfric is only for short and in the end it actually makes everything worse. united empire > stormcloaks. in the end the thalmor are actually planning to destroy everything, so it makes no sense to start a war, because you can't wait a few months till you get to worship talos openly again. the empire is not against talos, the thalmor are. so beat the thalmor -> get back talos. .... or.... beat the empire -> get back talos -> get beaten by thalmor -> lose everything.

Stormcloaks =/= racism

Imperials = racial supremacy (that's the whole point of the empire)

stormcloaks don't overthrow the thalmor. that's the job of the blades. and the empire works for the thalmore, so it's really:


blades vs alduin
blades vs dragons
blades vs greybeards
blades vs thalmor
blades vs empire (extension of thalmor)

stormcloaks vs empire
stormcloads vs thamor (by extension)

empire vs blades
empire vs stormcloads

greybeards vs blades

Alduin vs everyone



pick your side(s)

Actually, you can still kill Thalmor if you're in the Legion, nothing happens. Also, if a Legion patrol is nearby, they'll help you kill the Thalmor. http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/image.php?id=12958.

Some interesting points. On a small scale yes you can kill thalmor with some imperials without many reprecussions, maybe a small hit squad, but in the bigger picture the empire bows down to the thalmor regardless of your actions.

The legion have often said during my game that the stormcloaks are killing 'true suns of skyrim' when they fight, suggesting they contradict themself. Yet the empire stands back and let the thalmor murder talos worshippers, of which many imperials worship themself, which in my opinion is far worse.

Like I've said I hope skyrim is liberated from the thalmor, free from their tyranny and genocide, and then my character will help impose racial tolerance. Which if RL has shown has anything, usually gets better over time anyway, it's not perfect but it's getting better.

Stormcloaks are the reason so many people in Skyrim are dying to solve secondary problems while the true threats - Thalmor and the Dragons - are roaming around free.
Every Imperial leader makes if pretty clear that once Ulfric is gone they will take a rematch with the Dominion.

I have no doubt that the Stormcloaks mean well - but if there is any hope against the Dominion the Empire must stand together. If the whole Empire, in all its glory, couldn't beat the Dominion then won't this remote province that has just gone through a civil war, where a lot of people will probably oppose going to fight another war - against a more powerful enemy than the last one - so soon. And if they are delayed the Dominion will strike first.
Things like Talos ban - well - they are quite stupid reasons to go butchering people for. The ban is barely enforced in major cities anyway.

Yeah because Stormcloaks/Imperials are HUGE spoilers...

Anyhow, an Orc rolling with the Stormcloaks seems odd to me. Racist Nord pigs..

I have chosen the Empire for myself. The rebels do have a good argument, but that is all. Having a good argument is not a reason to start a war. Instead, I help the Imperials and the Empire to end the civil war. I also confront every Thalmor on the streets with my believes and end up killing them in self-defence, because they always draw their weapons just for me saying, "I can believe in what I want."

I guess this makes me somewhat similar to Ulfric, but unlike him do I not believe in racism or in war, especially one against one's own people. Shall the Thalmor complain to the Empire for not being able to shut me up... If war is necessary then I'd rather fight the Dominion before I fight my own people or the people of the Empire (which of course includes us).

You're dragon born though, it doesn't really matter what race you are, which makes sense to be honest. Think of this, the imperials don't exactly let khajits in their cities either, they are still forced onto the road.

As I see the situation:

The Thalmor attacked an Empire who was at an all time low i military strength(not counting after the war) and only managed to fight them to a stalemate. Since the overhanging danger of loosing the next war because the Empire would now be prepared for war and likely have a stronger army since humans repopulate faster than elves the Thalmor staged the Markart Incident and starting the Civil War to weaken the Empire.

The Thalmor are the only winners as long as the war goes on, but they will be back at the start-line the moment the war is over since neither the Stormcloaks or Empire winning are beneficial to them. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak (link may contain spoilers).

If Skyrim remains a part of the Empire the Empire will likely be strong enough to defeat the Thalmor when the conflict breaks out again, likely re-making the Tamriel Empire over time.
If Skyrim gains its independence the Empire will likely loose the coming war with the Thalmor, seeing as a major part of the Legion are Nords. However the hatred for the Thalmor outside the Dominion, combined with the unrest and possibility of a civil war in Valenwood, they will likely be defeated sooner or later.

Ulfric is rather unfriendly against all non-nords, making it hard to make alliances with other nations like Hammerfell, but he is known to inspire loyalty and respect among his soldiers and people. He will likely also prove to be a stronger leader than Elisif seeing as he has quite a bit of experience as a Jarl and being the son of a Jarl.
However, Elisif supported by the experienced and skilled Legate Rikke and General Tullius will likely also prove to be a strong government and be more accepting of other races, making it easier to make alliances after the coming Thalmor war.

In the beforementioned link there is a description of Ulfric being an "asset" to the Thalmor, though after the Civil War he will either be dead or hostile towards the Dominion essentially removing his status as an "asset".

It is clear from the lore in the game that the Empire only co-operate with the Thalmor until they know they are ready to defy the Dominion, making the ban of Talos a temporary solution.
The reguard managing to defeat the Thalmor on their own turf is also partially credited to the Imperial Legion General who left large amounts of veteran soldiers when he was called back to Cyrodiil.

In the end I believe the Empire is a slightly better choice in the longrun as I believe it would be better to fight the Dominion in Cyrodiil so other provinces like Skyrim may not end up a smoking ruin like Cyrudiil pretty muvh ended up as after the war.

People say that the Stormcloaks will not be able to hold Skyrim as if they are acting completely alone. Truth is, Hammerfell and Skyrim will probably sign some kind of alliance or treaty if the Stormcloaks win. And the Dragonborn is on their side. The Dragonborn could prolly take out the Thalmor single handedly

Like someone said above 'skyrim for the nords' also includes other races such as breton, redguard etc. So a partnership with the redguard homeland is entirely plausible.

I suppose it comes down to the good of skyrim vs the good of the whole land. Liberating skyrim through the stormcloaks is probably better in the short term, but in the long term big picture against the might of the thalmor it may be better for skyrim to be in the hands of the empire.

Although as the above quoted post wrote, skyrim lead by the stormcloaks could have the strength to protect it's people.

Because anything you reveal about what they are doing and why they are doing it is a spoiler. If that information cannot be gained except through playing the game then its spoiler.