I'm leaning towards the stormcloaks, can anyone sway me the : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:21 am

It would be a limited measure unlikely to hold up against a direct Thalmor assault. Skyrim would be in a much better state than Cyrodiil and in a less precarious position than High Rock too, but should the Thalmor attack either of those provinces or Hammerfell, it would only be a matter of time before it was Skyrim's turn.

Moreover, any alliance of men would be extremely unlikely in the aftermath of a Stormcloak victory. Should the Thalmor attack Cyrodiil, neither Hammerfell or Skyrim would have manpower or will to defend it. Both the redguards and nords have suffered large losses of life and diverting forces to Cyrodiil would mean weakening the defenses of Hammerfell and/or Skyrim. Of course, that's saying nothing of the bitterness and mistrust between Cyrodiil and the Stormcloaks as well as Cyrodiil and many redguards. No Imperial general would take orders from Ulfric's men on their homeland. Ulfric himself would not submit to being ordered around by the Empire, regardless of where they were.

I don't see skyrim under stormcloak and dragonborn control weak, considering the dragonborn's power over dragons, he will have a few loyal to him.

I suppose it's difficult to gauge how strong the dragonborn can be, in game you can slaughter entire armies, in the bigger picture and in terms of lore it can be quite different.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:58 am

I can understand ulfrics anger at talos worship being banned, but tied to his worship of talos is his nordic superiority racsism

How hard would it be for other nationality's if hes allowed to rule Skyrim ?

I don't think it's wrong to want your own race to rule Skyrim, that's just who you are and lived well by it.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 am

Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist pig, unworthy of the Throne of Skyrim. The people would be much better off with Elisif as High Queen.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:18 am

The Thalmor were not as weak as the Empire. The Thalmor still had all their lands and assests save for the manpower. The WGC's terms unequivocally favour the Thalmor and Thalmor interests. The suppression of Talos as divine is extremely beneficial to their long-term goals. Being able to roam the Imperial provinces and enforce this ban is a massive boon. Similarly, had the WGC gone ahead as it was signed, much of southern Hammerfell would belong to the Thalmor.

What would the Thalmor give up in return? Nothing.

The WGC was designed to buy time while both sides rebuilt their armies and rethought their tactics. The Thalmor were not in a great state, but they were in a much better position than the Empire.

Hammerfell and Cyrodiil are part of the same flawed plan, which was also the Empire's flawed plan and resulted in the WGC. The Thalmor might well have conquered Hammerfell had they not underestimated the Imperial forces in Cyrodiil and switched their priorities. The Thalmor have never battled the Argonians on that scale.

Had the Thalmor been in a much better state than the Empire it wouldn't be an Empire. End of Story.

In the end the Thalmor will be defeated though, seeing as they want to destroy the world. I doubt Bethesda have plans of letting that happen anytime soon.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:24 pm

People place such high values on race with their modern adjusted view.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 pm

People place such high values on race with their modern adjusted view.

Huh? You mean that they're non racist? isn't that a good thing?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:37 pm

I dont know if you know about the markarth incident, but Ulfric ordered all people that were not fighting against the Native inhabitants to be slaughtered, that meant all women and children as well that were innocent. Even the forsworn are less barbaric than the stormcloaks, and they rip out their soldiers hearts and turn them into briarhearts and create hagravens.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:40 am

Huh? You mean that they're non racist? isn't that a good thing?

Kings have been Kings for much less and I think people put to much on him for wanting Skyrim to be a place only for Nords.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:05 pm

Kings have been Kings for much less and I think people put to much on him for wanting Skyrim to be a place only for Nords.

The stories of Skyrim speak of a nation and people that welcome all species and races, under ulfric, that will not be the case, and nations will begin to despise Skryim, the empire is a better option.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:11 pm

I don't see skyrim under stormcloak and dragonborn control weak, considering the dragonborn's power over dragons, he will have a few loyal to him.

I suppose it's difficult to gauge how strong the dragonborn can be, in game you can slaughter entire armies, in the bigger picture and in terms of lore it can be quite different.

The Dragonborn is not a political leader. You could argue that the Nerevarine should have stepped in after the fall of the Tribunal and tried to hold Morrowind together through the disasters that have plagued it in the 4th era. But no, the Nerevarine went thataway -points to Akavir- Canoncally, the Dragonborn will do nothing that might contradict the playthroughs of players.

There's also no evidence to suggest that more than two dragons (Parthurnaax and Odahviing) would bother listening to the Dragonborn anyway. Many might simply migrate to Akavir, where they are revered by the Tiger-Dragon Empire. Many might side with the Thalmor due to their shared love of world-ending. Or... the nords might hunt them all down.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:06 pm

That's not for you to say and it doesn't matter if other nations despise Skyrim. As long as Nords can live their life with the ways of their people then they are fine. Banning people's worship of gods is one way to make the people angry.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:38 am

That's not for you to say and it doesn't matter if other nations despise Skyrim. As long as Nords can live their life with the ways of their people then they are fine. Banning people's worship of gods is one way to make the people angry.

Without the support of other nations, skyrim would be lost to the thalmor. The only reason the empire signed the treaty was so that the thalmor did not destroy the empire completely, which would include all of skyrim , without the treaty, the thalmor would have marched on a weakened cyrodill and skyrim with ease.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:40 am

Without the support of other nations, skyrim would be lost to the thalmor. The only reason the empire signed the treaty was so that the thalmor did not destroy the empire completely, which would include all of skyrim , without the treaty, the thalmor would have marched on a weakened cyrodill and skyrim with ease.

I disagree. Thalmor's ultimate goal is to wipe out man. If it was in their power to ruin cyrodiil today they would do it. The fact that they didnt is evidence that they cant. Banning Talos worship wont stop Thalmor from invading just as soon as they feel they can get away with it - and they wont stop just because they signed a treaty.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:38 am

The Dragonborn is not a political leader. You could argue that the Nerevarine should have stepped in after the fall of the Tribunal and tried to hold Morrowind together through the disasters that have plagued it in the 4th era. But no, the Nerevarine went thataway -points to Akavir- Canoncally, the Dragonborn will do nothing that might contradict the playthroughs of players.

There's also no evidence to suggest that more than two dragons (Parthurnaax and Odahviing) would bother listening to the Dragonborn anyway. Many might simply migrate to Akavir, where they are revered by the Tiger-Dragon Empire. Many might side with the Thalmor due to their shared love of world-ending. Or... the nords might hunt them all down.

I never said he was, but he would be indispensable in battle, a force to be reckoned with.

Those were the main two in my mind, but remember Odahviing saying how many dragons felt the same way as him about Alduin. I'm sure more dragons would pledge their loyalty to the dragonborn than die. Dragons siding with the thalmor, I can't see dragons 'siding' with anyone other than the Dovakiin, they believe they are to superior to become equals with men.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:36 am

I disagree. Thalmor's ultimate goal is to wipe out man. If it was in their power to ruin cyrodiil today they would do it. The fact that they didnt is evidence that they cant. Banning Talos worship wont stop Thalmor from invading just as soon as they feel they can get away with it - and they wont stop just because they signed a treaty.

According to the book on the great war, the thalmor were weakened after all was said and done as well, but they live much longer, and could easily rebuild their army quicker, without the treaty all would have been lost MUCH quicker, the empire is biding their time, and they hate the thalmor just as much, if not more than the stormcloaks, and dont resort to hate crimes to purge cities in their favor ( markarth incident) be the people women, or children.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:00 pm

People need to realize that the Dominion is crap and always was crap. They'll never be able to conquer anything again, and worst case scenario they manage to defeat the Legion in Cyrodiil. They wouldn't be able to touch Skyrim if they tried.

People also need to realize that the Dominions fighting force purely comes out of Alinor and those few spots in Valenwood that actually and truly support the Thalmor. Elsweyr isn't going to go to war for them, Valenwood is on the brink of civil war, and Alinor couldn't hope to generate a properly sized army to take on the rest of Tamriel, very much less Skyrim itself, without several hundred years to do so. What this means is that the Dominion's army is and always was one of the worst on the continent. It only ever saw its initial victory in the Great War because it attacked before the Legion could know it was at a war, and split it six different ways, engaging in an indirect war that relied heavily on shock and awe. And while that may have been effective, that same army went on to be destroyed in its near entirety, and then sit in a direct ground war for five years against a single province that had no support beyond what was in its borders.

Without the support of other nations, skyrim would be lost to the thalmor. The only reason the empire signed the treaty was so that the thalmor did not destroy the empire completely, which would include all of skyrim , without the treaty, the thalmor would have marched on a weakened cyrodill and skyrim with ease.

Get a clue. The Dominions army was virtually wiped out in Cyrodiil, the rest of it was sitting in Hammerfel, where it got fought to a standstill within months and was kept there for 5 years afterwords until the Dominion gave up. They couldn't have marched on Cyrodiil if they tried. And Skyrim? HAHAHA. As if the Dominion could ever hope to successfully invade Skyrim.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:52 am

With that out of the way, it's my belief that the were the races of men divided (Stormcloak victory), a Thalmor victory would be much easier. The Thalmor in Skyrim view the rebellion as a blessing and Ulfric Stormcloak as an asset.

people ALWAYS say this but don't manage to mention thalmor also say A stormcloak victory is to be avoided...

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:28 am

People need to realize that the Dominion is crap and always was crap. They'll never be able to conquer anything again, and worst case scenario they manage to defeat the Legion in Cyrodiil. They wouldn't be able to touch Skyrim if they tried.

People also need to realize that the Dominions fighting force purely comes out of Alinor and those few spots in Valenwood that actually and truly support the Thalmor. Elsweyr isn't going to go to war for them, Valenwood is on the brink of civil war, and Alinor couldn't hope to generate a properly sized army to take on the rest of Tamriel, very much less Skyrim itself, without several hundred years to do so. What this means is that the Dominion's army is and always was one of the worst on the continent. It only ever saw its initial victory in the Great War because it attacked before the Legion could know it was at a war, and split it six different ways, engaging in an indirect war that relied heavily on shock and awe. And while that may have been effective, that same army went on to be destroyed in its near entirety, and then sit in a direct ground war for five years against a single province that had no support beyond what was in its borders.

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Get a clue. The Dominions army was virtually wiped out in Cyrodiil, the rest of it was sitting in Hammerfel, where it got fought to a standstill within months and was kept there for 5 years afterwords until the Dominion gave up. They couldn't have marched on Cyrodiil if they tried. And Skyrim? HAHAHA. As if the Dominion could ever hope to successfully invade Skyrim.

And you really think the Stormcloaks would accept help from hammerfel? Yeah, fat chance, they are too full of themselves.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:44 pm

And you really think the Stormcloaks would accept help from hammerfel? Yeah, fat chance, they are too full of themselves.

Derp.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:51 pm

Derp.

The "true nords" would rather all die before they ask for help from anyone else aside from nords.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:45 am

Actually, Ulfric says he is sorry that the Dunmer are having problems but he just has more important things going on atm. And his second in command, Galmar, asks why you would want to join the stormcloaks not being a nord, but accepts your reasoning that not all inhabitants of Skyrim are nord. His words - "Fair enough, but are you willing to die for your home"? Shows to me that he is willing to accept non nord, but only hesitated at first because most non nords arent willing to help.

I have been saying this in many of these STRM VS IMP threads but no, they still consider ALL stormcloak's racist lol

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:10 pm

And you really think the Stormcloaks would accept help from hammerfel? Yeah, fat chance, they are too full of themselves.

And Hammerfell is probably worse off than Cyrodiil.

Edit: And before I forget to mention it, Stormcloak allegiance didn't prevent the Thalmor from being able to enter Riften and enter the Ratway. Nor did it prevent them from going to the College of Winterhold.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:37 pm

And Hammerfell is probably worse off than Cyrodiil.

This is true, because cyrodill has been rebuilding, while hammerfel is still fighting. The stormcloaks could ask for help from black marsh, but that would -never- happen.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:42 pm

And Hammerfell is probably worse off than Cyrodiil.

Its not. Only the south of the province was severely affected by the war with the Dominion. Sentinel and its northern (and generally more important) cities were not severely affected. In the 20 years since, much has likely been rebuilt.

Also fun fact about Ulfric: He's fighting for Talos worship because he was promised it by the Empire. They said he'd be able to worship freely and openly, and soon after the Markarth incident (what he had to do to get what he was promised) he was arrested by the Thalmor.

This is true, because cyrodill has been rebuilding, while hammerfel is still fighting. The stormcloaks could ask for help from black marsh, but that would -never- happen.

Don't ever post again if you're just going to spew completely false nonsense.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:44 am

Its not. Only the south of the province was severely affected by the war with the Dominion. Sentinel and its northern (and generally more important) cities were not severely affected. In the 20 years since, much has likely been rebuilt.

Also fun fact about Ulfric: He's fighting for Talos worship because he was promised it by the Empire. They said he'd be able to worship freely and openly, and soon after the Markarth incident (what he had to do to get what he was promised) he was arrested by the Thalmor.

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Don't ever post again if you're just going to spew completely false nonsense.

So slaughtering women and little children is what he had to do to get what he wanted, what a great man. Fun fact.