A generation when speaking of societal changes is pretty insignificant and makes it in no way a stable occurance, especially if you add in beings that live for hundreds of years (ghouls) and have seen things change time and time again.




Its already on the brink of breaking down, you have disenfrachised factions that are pretty large and influential (FoTA is one example) and you have a system that can only exist 'stably' as long as it is expanding (apparently). The first time the NCR meets a force that can defeat it, it would probably shatter. Why is that? With so many different factions unsatisfied within the NCR they seem only to be waiting for an excuse to leave but are unsure of their ability to defeat the NCR as the NCR has, up to this point, been an undefeatable force. If the people could see the NCR be defeated it would encourage them to rise up against it and regain their independence in smaller city-states like Vegas. Of course the same is true with Caesar... there are no real 'essence' differences between Caesar and the Republic their means to an end are different and Caesar is more focused due to a smaller form of tyranny but both suffer the same core problems. The difference is that it would be easier and more likely that Caesar could change his empire to a stable form of governance while the Republic would have difficulties doing so due to the entrenched interests that it builds by its very nature.

You don't think the 'brass' could make the same decision about 'tactical value' when it came to some tribals that have something that they want? You don't think they haven't already by forcefully annexing most of the mojave? Sure they signed a treaty with one group of rangers, but thats only because those rangers were powerful enough that they could've caused some trouble.

The NCR is a republic, so yes, it is a more realistic government... Spot on there. No government is going to be free of corruption whether it's a dictatorship or free society. I'll generally side with the NCR simply because it's a republic like the United States was designed. In that way, the people will always be represented (and if they elect imbeciles or crooks, the society is just showing it's true colors). A republic-style government has the benefit of allowing for true liberty. Granted, some taxes are required to maintain a government like that, but a government does need to be paid for. Perhaps someday there will be an elected official that offers tax cuts.

The Legion on the other hand is doomed for two reasons. First, it's a military dictatorship and the power of the government is maintained through force. Without a strong military, the country will most certainly fall from within. This is a major problem considering the Legion's ongoing conflict with the NCR. If the Legion takes too many losses, the Legion may crumble... Large in part due to the inability to enforce it's grip on the citizens. The second problem comes from the military as well. Think about it, if the Legion were to win all the necessary battles with it's foes and end the wars, what would happen with the military forces that have nothing to do? It would only be a matter of time before some power-hungry general staged a coup-de-etat against Caesar... It sure as hell wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

So look at the two. Would you rather side with a flawed republic with a system that can be maintained? Or do you want to aid an Empire burning the candle at both ends? Or perhaps just say the hell with it and screw over both factions... I know I picked the last choice. Yes Man and I took over Vegas and sent the NCR and Legion packing! Viva New Vegas!

Boy am I glad that the United States is a republic, not a democracy! You definitely have some... colorful views on free societies.

Okay. I still don't see the evidence of this happening though. You say that it would be likely that the NCR would be ousted by the native Mojave residents. Thing is, although many Mojave residents express discontent with NCR and state that they would prefer independence, would they actually fight for it?

Let's look faction by faction.

Followers of the Apocalypse aren't going to use military action to oust NCR.

Enclave is utterly destroyed by now.

Raider groups like the Vipers and Jackals are all but obliterated.

Great Khans haven't got a chance; Bitter Springs comes to mind. They're chem dealers and raiders, even the NCR was able to slaughter them.

BoS will hole up in their bunker (again.)

Vegas residents aren't warriors.

The Kings don't seem the type for open warfare.

In order to oust the NCR, you'd need an insurgency. No one faction could go toe-to-toe with the NCR military, nor are many of these groups likely to work together. But enough insurgent attacks could put enough political pressure back in California to "withdraw," so to speak. Now, is taxation enough to make the average citizen an insurgent?

Who'd you be more likely to violently revolt against? Someone who imposed martial law or taxed you, or someone who enslaved your wife and daughter and crucified everyone else you know?

CL is far more oppressive than the NCR, and more likely to face a revolution; although it would still be unlikely because of CL's ability to impose fear.

So in my opinion, if either NCR or CL take over, they aren't likely to face wide-scale revolution. Pockets of insurgency are far more likely, and I don't believe that would be enough to oust NCR; their assets in the region are too great now; they have the Dam.

The problem here I think is that you compare the Republic with the US as it was originally founded, which as far as I can tell just isn't so. It seems to be much more like the modern US, which is closer to a democracy than any sort of true Republic. And that system is not maintainable.

I mentioned that it would probably be triggered by a major defeat of the NCR and all the side trimmings that comes with. I haven't yet beaten the MQ, but I assume from what I've seen that if the NCR were to suffer a major defeat at the dam it would withdraw from the Mojave, as President Kimball is under an extreme amount of pressure at home, even if it didn't withdraw such a major defeat would mean that the Boomers would certainly lose faith and withdraw from any sort of agreement, and are likely to remain wary of aiding the Legion too much. The Legion being technologically backwards would take forever to move the amount of troops necessary to occupy the Mojave, especially after they'd lost huge numbers in a battle against the NCR. The droid army of the New Vegas itsself would be able to resist any sort of attempt on New Vegas by a weakened NCR and seems likely that the Boomers might aid the city especially in light of an eventual increased presence of the Legion.

As to the BoS, I share your opinion that they will not become a major player in the region, but I don't believe they would stay in their bunker. They are only underground because they fear the huge numbers of the NCR if the NCR begins to recede, I think there is a fairly good chance to BoS would begin some sort of insurgency in an attempt to retake Helios 1. Especially being motivated by the NCRs recent defeat. The Kings had already been engaging in some form of insurgency and resistence against the NCR, it would probably continue and I could see them aiding in an agreement between themselves and the Boomers, uneasy probably but due to the Boomers minimalist position it seems somewhat likely especially in light of Legion threat.


Basically the Boomers would become the major Mojave power.

They are slaves. It's called slave labor. They are charged food, water, clothes, anything they can think of then they end up owing them money. Look up sharecropper, they did it to blacks after the civil war. Very bad.

I actually totally forgot about the Boomers (!). I guess it's because I barely spent 2 hours at Nellis AFB, so I subconsciously discounted them.

Now I find myself agreeing with your position. The Boomers would definitely be able to go up against the NCR (and the Legion, too). They've simply got too much firepower and the NCR has no means to counter. Foot soldiers, even their power armor units, wouldn't be able to withstand shelling, and vertibirds wouldn't be likely to help either.

Now the prospect of an independent Vegas looks a lot better.

I suppose the whole NCR vs Legion thing is really a question of soft vs hard tyranny, respectively.

:goodjob:





Exactly

The legion can defeat the NCR, they've said several times that the legion could easily take the NCR now that they are almost broke and in shambles. The thing people aren't thinking about is that killing bad people quickly does nothing especially in the state of the world, are they really going to be scared of say the NCR (see camp mccarrans fiend assassination quest). I bet the Fiends wouldn't touch someone from the Legion because bad people do what they CSM for themselves. They aren't going to be afraid of a knife or gun.

It really annoys me when people make light of slavery by using abstractions like this. Being physically deprived of your freedom and thoughts is a REAL and CRUEL thing and is no way equal to some other notion of unfair governance.

There is no way to morally justify Caesar's use of slaves.

NCR protects people to an extent.
CL kills and enslaves people, to a much larger extent.

bliviongate:

Really? It annoys me when people make light of modern slavery by ignoring it. Taxation of your income is an idea of principle like anything else. Once a government declares it has a right to do it, all that changes is the amount. Once a government decides that your labour isn't your own but that it is theirs and you get the remains, you essentially belong to them. It is no coincidence that the income tax was introduced in the US at the same time 'cheap' slave labour was ended after the civil war. We traded one form for another.

Bad economic policy is just the same. If the government backs private industries and helps them grow and then maintain their control of the market and forces you to interact with that private company... it is slavery. The same with fiscal policy, if the value of your money (i.e. your labour) is watered down not because consumers choose simply not to buy your product, but because a government prints up more money to buy what it wants but leave you destitute... that is slavery.

Conscription is obviously slavery. Your life isn't your own, you belong to the state.

The NCR is this state incarnate. They just (censored) on you and call it rain, a 'civilized' smiley face form of slavery.

I'm a woman, so you might find it a little surprising to know that I'm partial to supporting Caesar's Legion. Here's why --

Right now, the basic exposure you get to either group pretty much involves their military tactics. Both CL and the NCR are on a march to claim as much territory as possible.

For CL, this means ruling with an iron fist. While he amasses a serious amount of territory, he must be able to move his troops where they need to go, namely, the borderlands; most are on foot, so a lot of attention has to go into maintaining order and structure where there is the most military activity (and for all we know, that's the Mohave). At the same time, he still has to maintain order in the "heartland" and the areas of unrest where he's previously done some conquering. While slavery is a [censored], it DOES get things done and the fearmongering of brutal punishment will keep people in line. In truth, areas that have accepted Legion rule likely go about their daily lives like nothing ever happened, and while the Legion law allows women to be used as walking brainless incubators, they're probably left alone once the dust settles.

Meanwhile, with the NCR, you've basically got this almost capitalist military behemoth gobbling up as much as it can without actually being able to lay down support structures as it leaves an area. It depends on keeping people placated with promises of democracy and puppies and rainbows, but structurally, it's actually quite weak. If CL were able to punch through the NCR's thickest outer wall, they might as well be mowing down the rest of the NCR empire.

That said, I like to think that having Caesar's Legion depend on my FEMALE character speaks volumes to the usefulness of women as something other than walking baby-makers. The idea of female equality was already implanted into people's minds, and it's unlikely that it won't just resurface as time goes on.

CL = Stability, Honesty, Brutality in war
NCR = Bureaucracy, Feel-Good Policies, Corruption

Well WHATEVER it was ... it was voted in the BY THE PEOPLE and it can be taken back BY THE PEOPLE if it is their will. You have a vote and you have freedom. With TRUE physical slavery you have none of these. You are an animal with no rights whatsoever.



...and you also have the option of leaving the "state" and living elsewhere. Unlike someone who is in physical bondage. What you're describing ( a form of Facism) is not a GOOD thing either, but don't try to make like its exactly the same as being forced to do exactly what your master wants you to.

You're right. Even Ben Franklin acknowledged the struggle. When asked by a colleague what type of government we have, he responded "A republic, if you can keep it." Republics are far more effective than democracies because democracies can easily devolve into populist democracies where the most charismatic leaders can ram through policies that would otherwise be unacceptable. With that, yes, you are correct that we are in fact more of a democracy today, but with time that can change... I hope that can change but that is a completely different thing and incredibly off topic and I doubt that most would want to hear my rants about real-world politics and government.

However, the NCR does have a maintainable government. Almost criminally inefficient, but maintainable. In a sense, the United States and most multiple branch government entities are designed to be inefficient so that no one person or group can exert their will without another group making sure that it doesn't violate the very laws and central beliefs of the nation. We know these as checks and balances. The NCR as I understand shares this sort of government and that's why I side with it. Yes, perhaps there is room for corruption, but the case for that could be made for any society. I have no doubt that the Legion has its own corrupt officials. The only difference is that corrupt officials in a military dictatorship are capable of even greater crimes than those in a representative style government, and far more likely to get away with it. Not only this, but the Legion's hold on the moral high ground is shaky. At the very best, neither the NCR or the Legion have the edge on morality. The NCR is far more likely to succeed however because even though there are corrupt people in the government and society as a whole, the government still represents the people. In the Legion, the government is imposed on the people through force.

It all boils down to what type of society you'd want to live in I guess. Me personally, I'd like to live in a nation that values individuality and relative liberty (let's face it, the only free society is anarchy). I would rather pay taxes, deal with corrupt politicians, and maybe be drafted. I would choose those flaws over living in a nation that truly enslaves people (not this relativistic "taxation is slavery" crap), treats women as property, and imposes it's moral beliefs on others (which someone accurately compared to the Taliban). Perhaps others would choose differently.

It is morally gray, but it's extremely obvious which faction is supposed to be the "bad guys" and which are supposed to be the "good guys." Yes, the NCR have done some pretty damn evil things, and even ask you to do some evil things for them, but the game clearly wants you to think of them as the good guys. Likewise, while the Legion does have some valid reasons for doing what they do, it's also clear that the game wants you to think of them as the bad guys. It's definitely not as morally gray as we were let to believe before the game was released, that's for sure. It is MUCH less black and white than it was in Fallout 3, though.

I hope in Fallout 4 this is fixed and we truly have no "evil" or "good" factions. Bethesda came kind of close in The Pitt, but the problem with that was that the evil aspect of siding with the slaves wasn't known to the player until very late in the main quest.

^^^^^^^
Thing is, I think too much choices-and-consequences can make narrative seemed forced. Also, trying to desperately maintain a good/evil balance between factions and characters can also end up feeling artificial. Sometimes the good guys ARE the just the good guys. And sometimes the bad guys really are just greedy and want to reap destruction.

I don't really know the spoiler tags, so I'll just go ahead and let everyone know this post has spoilers in it.

I've done playthroughs with both Legion and NCR endings. With my NCR ending they annaxed pretty much everything upsetting a lot of people, didn't do much of anything as far as stopping crime from being commited to it's citizens, and generally pissed off a lot of people who would have prefered to stay independent. Yeah, they did for the most part protect all their settlements from outside threats like raiders or mutated creatures, which is good though.

In my Legion ending, most towns caesar came across backed down and just allowed them to be absorbed into the Legion. Crime wasn't even heard of under Caesar's leadership. However, a few towns, most notably Primm, was completely destroyed because of their unwillingness to join the Legion, but the same could be said about Raider groups likes the Fiends. I think there may have even been a line about them relying a lot less on slaves as people began to see that, though sometimes cruel, caesar was actually a fairly good and just leader. Also, the Legion stopped moving after taking Vegas and did just as caesar predicted they would, moved from a travelling band of slavers to a stable and safe society.

But still, in the end, I'd have to say the NCR ending was far better for most of the wasteland as I can't think of a single settlement that the NCR tore apart for simply refusing to join. My point is though that Caesar's Legion doesn't seem completely evil as a lot think.

I have to agree with a few posters who said "the very fact that we are having this discussion is a big thumbs up to the writers" they have created a sense of moral ambiguity as no single side in the game has clean hands.

Maybe it is because i am an American that the ideas of the Legion do not sit well with me, yet i do recognize the NCR for what it is. The thing is though with my Ameircan view point i will point this out because i see it happening today. The American government is corrupt and inept, not because the system is inherently flawed but because the people are. The elected officials who run the American government are corrupt and inept, but it is not thier fault, that is correct NOT THIER FAULT, they are corrupt and inept because the people who elect them are corrupt and inept, that is right i mean you and I. This is the NCR, and they are replaying the American expansion during the 1800s, although in the historical senario America expanded west, in FONV the NCR expands east, other than that there is very little difference. You can cast the CL in the role of a European power like the Spanish who represent a return to the old ways of government namely a monarchy type of government. You can from this perspective cast the GKs into the roles of the various native tribes like the Apache or Cherokee tribes. You can cast the powder gangers in the role of any of the various outlaw gangs. Finally you can cast the NV strip in the role of a boomtown similar to Dodge CIty, or Tombstone. This is how i see the world of the FONV Mohave and as i play other characters they will be working on bringing each different faction to prominence.

What i can see and from talking to various citizens/soldiers of the NCR is that for all the faults and flaws of a few (mostly the corrupt and inept leadership) there is a seed of kindness and compassion in the average NCR soldier. It may be misplaced or even naive but that is thier charm, i look at them as my grandfathers who upon the crossing of the Rhine would had thier rations to the starving German people. That combat hardened veteran literally would go to sleep hungry feeding a civilian who may be the mother, sister, wife, father, brother, or child of a German soldier in the opposing fox hole. That is what i see in the NCR.

It is the mindless obedience of the average CL troop that gives me pause. It is a system built upon the cult of personality of ONE man, subject to his whims which may initially sound tolerable provided of course he is not totally fraking insane. Caesar may sound stable but his view point is that his people are a resource to be used as he sees fit in a very Stalinistic fashion, which is fine and dandy provided of course your the Stalin, or someone who gets to sit at his table, other than that you are comodity to be used up by the state. There is NO self determination of the individual, only a hive mentality, sorry i am going to have a Hot Fuzz moment (be sure to mumble along) and say "The Common Good", so if you are a traveler or a "crusty juggler" the CL or Sandford will not be a place to hang your hat.

The real victims will always be the civilians caught in the middle and the soldiers who will do the fighting/dying as the effite generals push pins around on a map. The only side that i feel is really worthy of protection is the citizens of Goodsprings, Novac, Primm, Nipton, Freeside, Jacobstown and to a degree the GKs. Unfortunatly in the game like life i am not given an ideal solution which is shoot the president, shoot Caesar, and then stand back and watch to see which system bounces back or even becomes stronger for it. In alot of ways while i do not entirely see eye to eye with Mr. House, i do feel he is probably the most neutral of the choices, but even so the question remains, is he able to guide or lead the people of the Mohave out of the chaos or will he turn inward.

I have not finished the game yet but i have made a hard save where i launch from while i investigate the various alternatives avaliable, but as i decided around level 2 or 3 with this character to be the strong typical western sherriff patterned after Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke and support the NCR i am afraid that as much as i do not want to i will have to shoot Mr. House. Leaving him alive and disconnected from the world around him would be inhumane as i do not know if i can force him to support the NCR he will be an obsticle that will need moving.

I am so looking foward to my next character, i have already made her, i have already decided on what type of person she will be. I am so tired of people insisting i hand over my guns, that Bethany was born, born to shoot those who ask. Oh you want my gun sure thing sweetie here is the bussiness end bang bang had enough or do you want some more? I intend to take the CL, the NCR, and Mr. House apart, i only wish i could do it literally. Bethany will be patterned after John Westly Harden who was so mean he once shot a man for snoring, so if you bump into her in the street or a building, copping a feel will be met with extreme force of a .45-70. I will make my own bullets which will be stamped with "from Bethany to ____________", so when your body is dug up by future archeologists they will know who you were and who shot you, creating a bit of a legend for herself as they stumble over the mountain of corpses she may need to leave behind. Bethany will be completely unconcerned with the welfare of any one but herself, looking only to make caps or solidify her position of power (yes poor Mr. House will be shot again so she can take over Vegas) perfectly content to let the NCR and the CL kill each other and once they have weakened themselves she will order HER securitrons to remove the victor from the dam and instill her own control over it. Not sure how much of this i can do though it should be interesting.

Asai

A lot of people forget that the NCR was invited into Nevada by the Rangers...who seem to have been the only rule of law/government organisation in the area. Sure, the NCR has annexed the region in all but name only, but they are doing what the treaty was intended to do - protect against the Legion. The trade off was resource mining (power, tech, etc), but that has established rule of law, trade, travel and money.

Keep in mind that the area outside of the Strip is essentially free territory, which the NCR have occupied on invitation, and their ambassador is simply there to deal with The Strip, more or less, meaning House.

It's not much different from what was going on in a lot of the world since the end of WW2: A growing democracy is threatened by a totalitarian regime on it's borders, and asked for UN (or certain nations, like the US or Britain) help. The UN (etc) would send troops either as a bit of gunboat diplomacy, or enter into a hot war to protect the invitee. Further, corporations would establish concerns in those nations, aid agencies would move in, and eventually the developing nation would be propped up or almost swallowed up by the assisting nations.

The anology is a bit harder to draw from a comparison of the present day, but I'm pretty sure it's there in some places in the world now.

To be honest. Considering the various factions and so on, in particular an military occupier spread to thin and a group of cruel tyrannical technophobes reminds me a lot more of Afghanistan than the western expansion. Just saying.

I think NCR are seen as the 'goodies', because they are basically the army...

If you look at things purely in terms of actions, yeah, it's hard to see how Caeser's Legion is good, but if you shift the focus to consequences, well, that's a different story. Look at things in terms of pros and cons when it comes to outcomes:

CL Pros
- Through strict enforcement of laws CL has created true peace in its territories (according to the trader outside the Fort).
- Caeser has organized the vagrant, savage tribes of the wasteland and brought about order.
- He realizes that the NCR is a factionalized "mercenary democracy" where there is no real shared vision or identity to create longterm stability. CL is the antithesis of this. Every member of the legion is devoted to sustaining the group, and thus humanity.
- Slavery is a necessary evil in his eyes to bring about discipline. Since he's using the Roman model it's pretty clear that when humanity can afford to give more liberties and rights to the individual not at the cost of the whole, those in his legion will experience be granted them.
- Incredible efficiency, unified purpose, and devotion of its army.

CL Cons
- When Caeser dies it's unclear how the Legion will continue to function, as it is his vision and his vision alone that sustains, created, and stabilizes the legion.
- It's not 100% certain that the Legion will ever grant a better way of life to its citizens.
- A lot of the powerful, influential members in the Legion hate the legion, but simply serve Caeser (his Legate for example). Thus, it's doubtful that the members of the legion are actually devoted to the cause like Caeser believes they are.
- Rule by fear only works as long as that fear persists -- who knows if the Legion will ever be able to transition into any other form of meaningful government that treats its citizens well.

NCR Pros
- Already has the human rights stuff down for its citizens far better than other factions.
- Has a working economy and government.
- Understands and preserves technology.
- In theory, the NCR model will lead to a good future for humanity.
- Seems to care about providing people with a better life.

NCR Cons
- Terribly inefficient and ineffectual due to its Democratic nature.
- Horrible crippling bureaucratic inefficiency.
- Treats non-citizens ambivalently and sometimes abuses them.
- Conscription seems like a death sentence in the Vegas region.
- Even if you accept that it's aims are noble, it's possible that they're aiming too high for post-apocalyptic America with many of their lofty notions. Their virtues can be a source of weakness when it comes to success against more savage opponents.

House Pros
- Believes in the preservation and furthering of technology.
- Grants a great degree of leeway to those under his rule.
- House is an efficient, intelligent, visionary leader who is quite literally immortal.
- He is a monetary genius and a capitalistic autocrat who believes in success above all else, giving him an advantage when it comes to building a future for humanity.

House Cons
- His plans are remarkably similar to that of the pre-war government -- minus Democracy -- and we saw how far that got America.
- Developing the technology to leave wartorn earth behind will not make life better for those who are on earth.
- He believes technology is humanity's salvation, but it's unclear if he believes in technology for that reason as an ends to a mean, or what.
- His libertarian nature does nothing to reduce the suffering of those in Freeside currently, so he seems completely uninterested in bettering the lives of those in the wasteland.
- He has lived in isolation for a very long time and is totally disconnected from the struggles people face in the wasteland: there is no one less sympathetic to the reality of 2083 Vegas than Mr. House.

The NCR didn't hire the mercs to attack Jacobstown, if you listen to them they mention one of the Brahmin Barons doing it, which would be in an unofficial capacity, so an NCR citizen did.

From a Hobbesian perspective, Caeser is Leviathan, and should be supported. If you believe NCR can win, it's probably best that they do. And House, well, whether or not to side with him is all about whether you have faith in his vision or not. I find it appropriately robotic and void of compassion for those suffering in the wasteland -- basically the opposite of the Followers of the Apocalypse.