You have to dig a little bit to see why the Legion's actions are not quite as despicable as people make them out to be. Here's my logic for aligning myself with Caesar's Legion. (Very minor spoiler)...


1. When you arrive at Nipton you see what the Legion is capable of for the first time. They've crucified people and put heads on steaks. One of the leaders tells you to look around and basically see how corrupt the people of the wasteland are. I did, and what I found was surprising. If you read the mayor's computer terminal he goes into great detail about how he is using people, making money any way that he can and has plans that are motivated by greed. Add that to the fact that the Legion had given out lottery tickets to the townspeople, who then proceeded to become animals and fight and stab one another in the back to try and escape, disregarding any care for one another (even women and children). The Legion put the townspeople of Nipton in a situation to show their true character, and selfishness and violence was the result. The winner of the lottery (forgot his name), was a perfect example of the corruption of the townspeople of Nipton. He was ecstatic about his "luck" and could obviously care less about the fact that every other person in the town, "loved ones" or "friends" were killed. All he cared about was himself. Now that's just one example.

2. The Legion does not allow any addictive drug use, kills those who use them or drink alcohol.

3. They focus on prosttutes, and their main goal is to "cleanse the wasteland." It is a fairly noble goal if you ask me. Are innocent people killed in the process? Well, is anyone truly innocent? At least that's the claims of the Legion and I have to agree. Most of the people of the wasteland are selfish and will stab you in the back the moment they get the opportunity to take something from you.

4. If you look at the actions of groups like the NCR, many of them are hypocrites. On one hand they are the "good guys" and on the other they are partying, drinking and buying prosttutes on the Strip. You don't see any of Caesar's men doing this.

5. And my last point. The world is in the state that it is in because of selfishness and greed. The Legion is attempting to cure the world of such things. Drastic times calls for drastic measures.

Legion all the way!

I think the fact that we can even debate this means Obsidian threw a little bit of ambiguity into the mix.

this.

Caesar's Legion and the NCR are both greedy, expansionist groups. They just use different methods to achieve their goals. I don't think of either of them as "good".

If Legion truely wants to conquer the land and unify everybody then why do they treat women horribly and why do they want to wipe out certain groups that don't fit in with them such as the GK or the BOS if their true goal is to unify the wasteland.

Trust me Legion isn't good but at least they will tell you what they are going to do to you unlike the NCR who will backstab you to secure their special interests.

Great point.

Another thing is that no "bad guys" ever think that they are "bad." They always think what they are doing is the right thing. Whether real or fictional. Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler is a perfect example. Hitler had 10's of thousands of people helping in the extermination of millions of Jews. One might look at this and think, "how could these people even justify this?" While there may not be a clear-cut answer to that question, one thing is for sure. The hatred for the Jews had been brewing for a number of years. It wasn't like the Nazi's just decided one day that they were going to start murdering 10's of thousands of people per day. Same thing in the case for the Legion. To justify what the Legion is doing you must first do a little bit of role playing, and give your character a minor backstory.

For me, my character grew up continually being let down by the people he thought were his friends, the wasteland was/is an unforgiving place where all anyone truly cares about is themselves. My character was at a point where he had given up on humanity. The Legion provides a possible re-birth of civilization. A clean-slate, in a sense. The incident where he was shot in the head and the experience at Nipton was the tipping point. The moment that I, "turned to the darkside."

NCR is going down the path of the old world. They're expanding faster than the resources of the wasteland can sustain them. Eventually, they'll run into the same problem the old world faced, too many people, not enough resources. There will be another Great War and thanks to the NCR's technology, it'll have a similar result as the last Great War.

Caesar's Legion may be cruel and barbaric but it's a civilization that can actually be sustained in the long run. Their strict discipline reduces waste and conspicuous consumption. Their ban on technology prevents the creation of weapons powerful enough to destroy civilization.

Their goal is not unification. It is to cleanse the wasteland of certain things. The NCR represents everything that the Untied States represented. Capitalism, free enterprise, big government (whether they want to admit it or not). That obviously did not work out very well. The NCR is trying to restore the same regime that got the world into the state that it is in. The Brotherhood of Steel is in the same boat as far as their goals. They only care for technology and look to gain power any way they can. They have absolutely no moral code for anything they do.

And as far as the women go, the Legion is a group that is intent on allowing the strong (themselves) survive. That type of mentality translates to their lifestyle within their own culture. With the idea that the strong decide the fate of others, that simply means that men dominate women (sorry, not trying to be sixist). But that's the way that it works in tribal societies. The men are in complete control and the women are submissive.

Here's a fun tid-bit, inside Aurelius of Phoenix room/office you can find several beer bottles, one next to his night-stand.

I still don't see how the Nipton incident was a "cleansing."

They didn't simply kill off every single person in Nipton. There's a difference between lining up people and shooting them in the back of the head and throwing people onto piles of burning tires and crucifying them. Both acts are murder, but one is quick and the other is deliberately slow and torturous.

I might remind eveyone that when you go into Nipton, the people on the crosses are still alive.

Nipton was just a bunch of prosttutes, yes. The mayor was completely corrupt, yes. I fail to see how crucifying the entire town was a positive action. That seems like a disturbingly medieval viewpoint to me.


The case for Caesar's Legion can only be made if you believe that the Wasteland is so lawless, brutal and dangerous that a brutal, unifying force is the only way to save humanity. If America in 2281 was a lot more like, say, Fist of the North Star or any other much more pessimistic post-apoc setting, maybe you could make that argument.

But the problem is, that the Fallout setting isn't like that. In Southern California, there's San Francisco; Vault City is also in Nevada if I remember correctly. Two examples of post-post apocalyptic cities, completely new and rebuilt (ignoring Vault City's own slavery issue.)

In the Mojave, most of the settlements aren't any worse than, say, 1800s America. Freeside and Outer Vegas are scarcely worse than any modern day ghetto. Obviously living conditions aren't exactly optimal anywhere in Fallout, but I honestly don't believe that they are worse than any other period in human history.

If Fallout was a place where raiders [censored] and pillaged every single settlement daily, killed and kidnapped women and children en masse, cannibalism was far more common, chem suppliers like the Khans ruled most of the wasteland instead of casino owners, then maybe Caesar's brutal rule of law would make a lot more sense.

I really think Obsidian sort of dropped the ball on CL. They characterized NCR grey enough, but they made it sound much more like the game was grayer than it really was.

I agree with some other people that said that CL would be a lot more sympathetic if they shared more in common with Western perception of classical Rome. Brutal and militaristic, yes, but also fond of art, philosophy, and theism; and what if, in Caesar's territory, CL was rebuilding everything? You go into CL territory and instead of tents they're building new roads and towns and aquifers? Then the benefit for Caesar's rule becomes much more clear.

Well, that's different!

Gee, I think the Taliban, err... Caesar's Legion is great now! lol

This is why I sided with Mr. House, he gave clear reasoning as to why he wanted it done, nor did he say 'because I say so'

Mr. House isn't about government, he's about business and technological progress. These are things I have always cared more about than government, in my personal opinion, I've always felt private business has contributed far more to the world than government. My only objection to anything Mr.House does is a certian thing he does in an end slide. (I wont say it so as not to ruin it for the others)

Ok well 1800's America is far too general a comparison, as Americans place in the world changed rapidly in the 1800's from an agrarian republic to an industrial empire. And during this time America still imported huge quantaties of manufactured goods (fairly cheaply) from Britian. Their settlements also aren't clean (here I mean without clutter or homes being properly maintained, etc) and farming only now seems to be coming about, societally I'd say their closer to ancient Greece or Rome than they are to any industrial/proto-industrial nation in the 1800's. So to try and make any comparison especially when in 2281 America there is only the most basic beginnings of industry and rule of law is just spinning ones wheels.


*SOME SPOILERS BELOW!*















As to the second portion, the mojave was like that until the NCR began to move into the region from the west disrupting alot of the major tribals while simultaneously Mr House returned with his robot army and forced/bribed some tribes into becoming more 'civilized' and helping to settle New Vegas. Caesars description of how the Legion grew should give you a pretty good idea of what the rest of the southwest is like, that which you just described the Mojave as not being. Caesar is settling the land to the southeast of Vegas, just as the NCR is attempting to, in a less succesful manner, to the west and southwest of Vegas.

I feel a tad mislead, there isn't that many quests that are more on the darker side of life.

>Gain bad karma/very high strip reputation
>Go to The Ultra Luxe
>Start Beyond the Beef

Well, NCR rolls out and everything gets fine and dandy, people are under a government, laws are put out, civilization starts to pan out okay again, but what happens if NCR breaks down?
What happens when the NCR laws that thugs in 2281 were scared of breaking suddenly becomes nulled?
Chaos.
That's what's going to happen.
It's already shown in New Vegas that NCR can't handle everything.
They spread out too quickly and make themselves too many enemies on the way and it's going to come around and bite them in the ass.
NCR will fall, at some point it will fall if they keep this up.
And when that happens everything will go back to square one.
And the whole raiding, [censored], kidnapping, pillaging, massacring every day thing?
That will ensure to follow since a lot of people will try to seize the opportunity to make something of themselves and start their own raiding parties, war bands or gangs.
And the prosperous cities will be like the kittle filled with gold on the end of the rainbow for them.
And with no NCR to back the townsfolk up they are most likely going to have little to none with combat experience.
The town will fall and the people who made it out will have to become nomads, tribals or radscorpion lunchboxes.

The west coast may be civilized now, but if NCR falls, who will pick up the pieces?
And is there any fail-safe for the whole raiding, [censored], kidnapping, pillaging, massacring thing every day not to happen?

So should Caesars Legion wait for this to happen?
And sit around and do nothing and just wait until NCR collapse?
It's better to take them on while they're still going and while Caesar is still alive.

(I'm a little tired right now so sorry if my post makes little to no sense. Will come back tomorrow to clean it up.)

In order to make Caesar's Legion morally ambigious, they should have portrayed it as something like the Mongol Empire. Meritocracy and fairness (as fair as you're going to get out of a empire) were a staple of Ghengis Khan's empire. His entire philosophy was to conquer through diplomacy, if possible, and force, if necessary. It was gunboat diplomacy in the 1200s. Once conquered, the towns would enjoy peace and prosperity, as long as there was no resistance to the Khan's rule. Ghengis Khan was brutal, though. He slaughtered cities who did not surrender.

That would be a morally amibigious choice. Do you choose to side with the NCR who is corrupt and weak but not as brutal? Or, do you side with the Legion (if it was like the Mongol Empire) who is brutal but powerful and fair.

I can't defend Caesar's view of the ends justifying the means. The only people who profit under Caesar are the strong (who can already fend for themselves). I can't support the NCR either. They are slightly less bad. They want their empire, too. The main difference is that there is less horrific brutality with the NCR. They are capable of it (Bittersprings) but they do not usually nail their victims to wood. Both empires enslave people. The Legion does it openly, while the NCR does it through taxation, conscription, corruption, and bad economic policy. The only moral choice, in the game, is to side with yourself.

Why, though, would they portray it as something its not? They are trying to make it like a conquering Roman Empire, hence Caesars Legion, crucifixions, enslavement, all having to do with the old Roman empire. Otherwise they would have probably made a Mongolian type of Empire, but trying to Replicate a Roman republic doesn't mean putting other things into the mix.

It's possible to defend any crime if you try really hard, so I hope that those who defend the Legion are just practicing their debating skills I feel sorry for anyone who can't see that the Legion is a thousand times worse than the NCR. They're just a bigger, glorified group of raiders, slavers and rapists. They lack any respect for human life or dignity. I want to punch them in the face whenever they call others "degenerates". The NCR may have its issues, but corruption and weakness aren't on the same level as murder, slavery or [censored].

They could have the a Roman-esque empire, as the Legion is in game. Simply make Caesar similar to Genghis Khan. There you go. You have the Roman empire but less morally evil. The reason is because they promised us moral grey. What we got were morals between one shade above black and grey.

The Legion's moral position is untenable. Especially, when it is compared to the NCR's. The NCR is weak through corruption. That is their most glaring moral problem. While weakness, in itself, is not a moral issue, it is a moral issue when a government is too weak to defend its citizens. If the government is not benefiting its constituents, then why does it exist at all? Both the NCR and the Legion suffer from this problem.

Caesars Legion is very much a meritocracy. The former Legate failed so he is slain and a new promising general is made the new Legate. Its a brutal meritocracy but a meritocracy none the less.












*Spoilers ahead!*




















If you run Caesars side, he will have you approach some of the tribals and convince them to join his Legion, so if you're trying to compare him to what you claim the Mongols did (which is a pretty loose interpretation of the Mongolian Empire), its essentially the same. The Legion shares very little with the Roman Empire as it outlaws drugs and many other forms of distraction, which the actual Empire used to distract its citizens and keep them appeased and under the Empires thumb. The Roman Empire also often ruled through 'protectorates' as opposed to Mongolian (and the CL's tactic) outright domination.

I have to disagree. Play Fallout 2, which occurs 40 years before NV. Like I already said, society was already beginning to rebuild 40 years prior. San Francisco is a good example; it's post-post-apocalyptic. Vault City still had slavery, but it was a new, clean city. NCR, formerly Shady Sands had a fully built city. Broken Hills had crops, too. In fact, most places in FO2 had natural vegetation. The places that had it the worst were places like The Den and New Reno. Hell, Gecko had a fully (after the Chosen One took care of it) functioning nuclear reactor. You say that agriculture and industry seem to be only just now coming into play, but I find it very difficult to believe the Mojave is that far behind Southern California.





I understand what you're saying, but when it comes right down to it you are saying that because the NCR might lose power/influence (which is a stretch, especially considering that if you activate Helios 1 and assist the NCR in taking the Dam, they'd control the two main sources of energy in the entire region as well as having broken CL down by killing off the Legate and Caesar) in the Mojave region, it'd become lawless again, and therefore we should slaughter towns, burn people alive, crucify everyone else, and enslave everyone.

I don't see the logic there.

I haven't played a character aligned with the Legion, yet. However, I hear that at the ending most settlements are wiped out even if they side with the Legion.

I do not see many redeeming qualities for the Legion. Perhaps, if they cut out the misogyny and the slavery, then there would be an argument for a morally grey Legion. As it is now, they are simply might makes right.

The NCR's moral position is untenable because it has no moral position, this is a problem with all democracies and by this I'm not arguing they should legalize specific moralities held as stone. In essence they are the same as Caesar's legion only the are more orderly and are perceived to have 'legitimacy' because they take votes. What does the Republic stand for?


Sanctity of Human Life?

Ask the Khans they'll tell you that the Republic certainly has no unviolatable respect for human life.... or hell even ask the Kings if you take a certain route.

Right to property?

Ask the people of Primm who you can have annexed into the Republic against their will or the people who may have their property siezed when the Republic comes in (again the Khans or hell even the sharecroppers). I also remember one of the ranchers discussing how the NCR was actively aiding some of the ranchers in growing their farms at the expense of others which is American style fascism.


Right to travel freely?

Go to the mojave outpost.... its to 'dangerous' to travel, even with armed escorts and why is that because the Republics war effort demands it.



Essentially democracies believe in nothing, they vote to enrich and empower whoever happens to be in charge of the largest mob. It isn't rule of law and it only has the appearance of legitimacy that Caesar can only dream of.

You're confusing malevolence with plain bureaucratic incompetence. As Boone explains, the Bitter Springs massacre was an order sent down by upper brass who had no clue what was actually happening there. The roads weren't protected because the upper brass kept on stationing troops in one place with perceived "tactical" value and refusing to let them move into the wasteland and do their jobs. Talk to actual NCR soldiers and you'll see how frustrated they are that they're not allowed to actually do their jobs because their leaders aren't competent and give them orders to sit in one place and do nothing.

I find your "anolysis" of democracy pretty damned disturbing when applied to a real life situation.