I know what you mean, Mr. House is the 'Dad' of this game IMO, his voice is very reassuring, authorative, like he KNOWS what is to be done, but the guy is a genius, hell, he founded RobCo at 22 years old. xD

i kinds of wish i could have met him in the flesh.

well you can i guess, but you know what i mean

The NCR's not perfect, but I can't think of many, if any, governments that are.

Yes, they tax their citizens and take over towns by force, but I reckon that's better than living in a struggling community where each day is an up hill battle against raiders, starvation and dehydration.

Because of the NCR, the West Coast is thriving, almost like a pre-war society from what I've been led to believe. Remember the Jackals and Viper gangs? They're nothing now; the NCR ended them.

One might argue that the Legion could do these things, and they'd be right. But who wants to live in a society where women are enslaved and at best, mistress to a high ranking officer? Where if you're not so physically able, you have to endure hours and hours of hard labour all day for the rest of your life.
I'll be honest, Ceasar actually seems like an all right guy; he has a vision and seems reasonable about it, but his men are bloodthirsty savages. They're not shy about expressing it, either -- you hear about it all through the game, how they pillaged this town and how they're going to nail these guys to a cross, etc, etc. It's terrible. And worst of all is the Legate, Lanius; is that really someone you'd want ruling over you?

All right, you can say that these tribes were savages, but I don't really think the Legion is civilising them; they're just using their brutal nature as a way to make their ends meet. From what I've heard, Ceasar taught them how to make weapons and explosives, not how to read and write.
Oh, and Legion lands are much safer for traders and caravans, but that's because they instill a sense of fear into anyone against them, and if you are, you're dead. I have no doubt in my mind that the NCR could achieve this, if they weren't at war with the Legion.

I agree that there's hardly any grey at all. There's a shade with the NCR but, at least to me, the Legion is completely evil, and that's coming from someone who supported the Legion before New Vegas's release. Even if the Legion did take over the West and brought 'civilisation', would you really want to live under them?

When I first got to the lucky 38 I was looking around for the off switch but once I heard that 'I'm so sure of myself attitude' I was like ok, I'll see what this guy has to say.....


Voice acting was wonderfully perfect.
I think no one else could have done it better. And yes he has an Authority type of voice and knows whats to be done.

The problem with the NCR is not the fact that they are a government, but the fact that there are to many corrupt higher powers and the government idly sits by, the fact that they are over extended in the Mojave, claiming to do 'righteousness' but only for their own citizens, take a look at The Strip, the only reason they resent it is because they do not own it. Over all, the NCR is more or less making overly stupid choices as opposed to some evil gremlin as some think they are.

@Mumatil- You are a terrible man, killing Mr. House. :sadvaultboy:

This is true, and I also get the feeling that they really don't care much for the little guy, and my evidence comes from President Kimball himself. After his speech, you hear him say: "Come on, let's get the [censored] out of here; you think I wanna get shot? Come on.'' Doesn't really sound like a caring president.

But still, there are good people in the NCR, and I just can't see any redeeming points for the Legion, except that they are 'strong'... brutal savages is more like it, if you ask me.

Seriously, it's like the Legion enjoys watching people suffer, hence the crucifications. I understand deliqiuents such as Power Gangers have to go, but damn, if you really feel as if they have to be killed, just end it quickly.

Nope, the character I played as was, now my second character will be a suave gambler who hires Boone as help and become his new employee to his future global corporation that preys off the greed of everyone.

If Boone gives him any lip he will be compensated for a job well done with a parting gift package of a bullet to the head and a free burial. These seem to be customary in the Mojave.

....with a slave standing next to him, and a line of slaves staggering down the path towards him, bearing loads that would make a Brahmin collapse. I almost started firing right then and there. :flame:

But, no... I held on til after the talk with Caesar and

.
.
.

But, yeah. Col. Moore's quests don't make the NCR look very good either. I'm not feeling very "good guy" right now. :sadvaultboy:

best summary of Caesars legion i have seen. i wish they had given Caesars legion more redeemable qualitys. and made the NCR look a little more like jerks. because there isnt alot of in game things that hint at them being corrupt

How can you say that Caesar's Legion is evil? I was surprised when talking to Caesar about how rational his philosophies were.

Also, if you think about it, isn't the NCR doing the same thing as Caesar's Legion by annexing towns and forcing them to pay taxes and even conscription?

In my opinion both the NCR and Caesar's Legion employ slavery and destroy towns, it is just that the NCR methods are much more subtle than Caesar's Legion methods.

well it makes sense considering if you do nothing to intervene he will get shot. (or you intervene by delivering the shot) :laugh:

I thought he was an annoying whiny bastard who couldn't stop talking. (And when I finally killed him, man, second best part in the game for me.)
I don't know how he is a genius since I haven't joined him yet, that's for the next playthrough, but even if he is he is also a very very VERY disgusting man.

So I'm not sure if I'm going to enjoy the next playthrough as much since I'm going to side with him but oh well, he might surprise me. :shrug:

And morally grey.
They did make out Legion too much of "evil" people but I still see where Caesars's going with it and I have full support for his cause.
True to Caesar.

what part was the best?

also- i dont see how you can still support the legion.

they will probably never abolish slavery and they abuse there women.

I can't tell if this is a real post or if you're just trying to break my heart. :cold:

The legion has a set of qualities they value; loyalty, adherence to the rule of law, order, and then they go about perpetuating those values in the most brutal way possible. I'd argue that in a more moderate state, all of the legion's virtues (except the institutionalized misogyny) would be redeeming points. The problem is that the Legion is too much like Batman. Too many absolutes there, not enough recognition of varying degrees of guilt.



Drawing out the profligates' end makes the message Caesar's sending out more potent. "Oh, Caesar? He'll shoot you." Versus "Oh, Caesar? He'll nail you to a cross in the hot desert sun while crows pick at you while you're still alive." A large part of Caesar's order is derived by his legion's extreme brutality; raiders are too terrified to operate in his territory because he knows that when he catches them (it's not a matter of if, but when since Caesar can't afford not to without his whole empire collapsing like a house of cards), he won't just give them a clean death. He'll crucify them.

It's very brutal and crude, but for better or worse, it works.

I wouldn't want to live under Caesar unless my only other option was living in the Pre-scourge Pitt or Pre-Caesar Arizona, but then, I can't think of anywhere I'd actually want to live in the Fallout, because even for civilized folk, life is still very brutal, nasty, and short.

That's Ceasar. One may argue that the Legion is Ceasar, but I disagree. He is somewhat rational, yes, but I still think his men carry achieve his goals for him in the worst ways possible.

I personally believe the NCR's methods are more 'subtle' because they're not brutal. Okay, Bitter Springs was a disaster, but these things happen -- you think the NCR would want that to happen? On the other hand, when the Legion try and take it over (Boone's quest), so you can see them first hand cutting down innocent men and women.
And I wouldn't say the NCR employs slavery -- they just encourage people to work. But they're working for the good of the Republic, to make it thrive and become a civilised society, and let's remember they get paid for this.
I think the NCR take over towns and make them prosper, not pillage them.

I just find it ironic that although the Legion witters on about how they're physically superior, their leader is suffering with a brain tumor and is barely fit to sit on his own throne, let alone lead an army (which he didn't do anyway, I guess).


True, true, but I still get the feeling he didn't really give a crap. But I suppose that's fair enough.

What Obsidian did was provide us with a morality that you have to think about. At face value, the NCR is good, the Legion is bad. But, the more you learn about the factions, the more you come to find that this isn't really the case.

The NCR's motives aren't "good intentioned". They are out to hold the Hoover Dam. They are willing to divert needed troops from a prison to the Dam, resulting in an outbreak that they take no actions to resolve. When the Legion crosses the river, they still don't divert troops from the Dam. Politically, the NCR is only concerned about California. The Mojave is just a place to provide needed electricity. However, individually, the NCR is humane. They have a concept of emotional trauma. They aren't supposed to beat their prisoners. And, if someone is being attacked, they'll intervene and help.

Individually, Caesar's Legion is incredibly cruel. They take slaves, they crucify enemies and criminals, and they don't feel guilty about doing it. But, Caesar's motives are well intentioned. The NCR is becoming increasingly similar to the societies that caused the great atomic cataclysm. Additionally, the NCR's freedoms are only useful if they can defend them, which they may not be able to. Caesar took society back to ancient times, with the goal of shaping a society that won't eventually destroy itself. And along those same lines, Caesar's focus is on law and order above freedom. You could argue that, in the long run, Caesar's Legion would build a better world than the NCR.

And that's where that gray morality comes in. By helping the NCR, are you just staving off their inevitable collapse into anarchy? Or are you helping them on the way to becoming the next Pre-War America or China? By helping the Legion, are you killing and crucifying people for an unobtainable goal? Or are you contributing to a society that will become worse than the ones that preceded it?

The loyalty is there, yes, but that's because if you fail, you're covered in pitch and cast into the Grand Canyon...

I guess these points are valid, but at the end of it all, you're living in fear, and unless you're a member of the society's upper echelon, your life is, ultimately, going to be miserable.

And I may be wrong here, but I think people underestimate the NCR's strength, which I find incredible. They rebuilt the West Coast, and destroyed the Vipers and Jackals, similar to what the Legion did in Arizona. If it really is so weak, it would've crumbled from the inside, but it hasn't.
On the other hand, Ceasar has the say over everyone, and people follow him, simply because he's Ceasar. Marcus is right; they don't care for his ideals. When he dies, it'll fall unless a worthy leader steps up.

Caesars leagion is basicaly a bunch of gym teachers with guns..

Ncr is the in crowd with an army

Mr house is the nerd who writes everyones term papers.

thats a great anology

You have some very valid points there, but take the NCR sharecroppers for example, sure they get paid to grow crops but they are paid barely enough to survive, let alone making a profit, doesn't sound too good of a lifestyle to me... And to make matters worse, the NCR insists on paying the farmers in NCR Currency which is severely depreciated since the Mojave Desert's main form of currency is still caps.

Also, what about the towns in which the residents do not wish for the NCR to annex their towns and pay their taxes? Do you think the NCR would be ok with that and leave the town alone?

But, either way, both CL and NCR have their fundamental flaws.

Best part, meeting Caesar.

And the slavery part will surely slow down at some point and their slaves will surely get some better treatment but that's looking ahead a century or two, same with women.
I do believe that their cause would be the best in the long run.
It will be filled with blood, fear and misery but out of it true civilization will emerge once again.
It's better than the anarchy that's been rauaging the wastes for 200 years which does no progression.
Just cause they seem like psychopaths who treat everyone else like [censored] now doesn't mean it will always stay this way.
It's necessary for the time being perhaps.

I feel that NCR while their soldiers and lower in command are good guys will fall due to the impotence, greed and corruption in the upper command.
And what will happen once it falls?
It's back to square one with raiders again, and the raiders will likely raid the prosperous communities which in turn will leave everyone to square one with scavenging for small scraps of food.
The more advanced communities will likely isolate themselves and eventually fall due to corruption, revolution, food or water running low, equipment failure or a large warrior tribe attacking them.

I simply see no cause to support NCR when I only see that it will fall sooner and later and all that Tandi worked for will fall apart.
House on the other hand I do not know anything about, he is annoying, creepy, disgusting but his goal might be better than Legions.
But that remains to be seen.

While this is true, I'd argue it's the same for all the ingame options except possibly Wildcard. NCR? You pay harsh taxes and send your children off to die in the NCR's foreign wars unless you're wealthy enough to bribe your local NCR rep. House? He doesn't care about you unless you're wealthy enough to catch his interest. Followers? They're anarchists who have good motives but go about them in a boneheaded way, enough that I'd argue the anarchy ending is the worst ending in the game for everybody.



All that is past glories. Nowadays, though, all we see is how the NCR can't run a war with Caesar. How despite the NCR's technological edge, they still can't even eject the Legion from Nelson or stop the slave trading at Cottonwood Cove. The NCR can't even defeat an organized army of tribals these days. Maybe their problem is psychological - they've lost the initiative and have no way to reclaim it because their leaders are timid - but it's still a pretty big problem throughout the whole game. I'd imagine a lot of it is them buying into Caesar's propaganda too. When someone who comes along who doesn't (read: Courier on the NCR path) we see just how quickly the NCR can start to win.

I'd imagine it's also because of logistics. The NCR doesn't keep the roads safe. Caesar does. Caesar knows how valuable the flow of supplies is, while the NCR obviously doesn't, since they let caravans get raided within sight of Vegas (and hence McCarron.)

Edit:



In the real Roman empire, slaves had the opportunity to buy their freedom. I wouldn't be surprised if they could too in Caesar's empire. The misogyny is more problematic, but I can't see that lasting forever either.

Caesar's empire trades short term brutality for long term prosperity... In theory. That other guy said it best. A lot of the interesting parts of this story come from weighing the choices and deciding whether you think Caesar's path will result in something good in the end, or whether it'll collapse before it reaches the goal.

There is one clear cut case of the NCR committing an atrocity. Ask Boone (or that other sniper in Novac) about why he left the NCR and he will mention obliquely what happened up near Bitter Springs. If you go up to Bitter Springs its made pretty clear the NCR wiped out an entire city of Great Kahns starting with the women and children. I dont think they were intentionally directed to do it, but thats how it pretty much played out.

There is also one NPC that actually has decent things to say about the legion. If you talk to the trader up in their camp he points out that the legion makes the roads between perfectly safe from bandits and the like in a way the NCR cant. (I suspect the crusifixes play a large part in that). He also mentions that their pretty reasonable to trade with as long as you deal honestly with them.

I think the problem people have with the legion is their moral system is viewed fom the perspective of an audience weaned on modern notions of humanism and liberal democracy. The trick to the legion is their own moral system is VERY black and white. If you contribute meaningfully to their society then you belong, and your a member of a very elete society...however lowly your own position in that society is. your encased in the fold. If you stand aginst them then your the enemy. You must be destroyed. The ancient Roman empire thrived not because it was so brutal, but it was so brutal to its ENEMIES. The Roman empire offered many, many advantages to those willing to submit to its rule, and by and large was generous to those that did submit. Its not politically correct to admit that, but its true.

saw that comin