Precisely this. None of the DLC or likely expansions will have very much hard code or game engine modification.

Bug fixes that require hard code adjustments are being made by programmers. New quests, NPCs, and content is being created by artists and writers.
Different strokes.

If artists and writers really are responsible for content design, then I suppose it's no wonder there are so many bugs, and poorly balanced aspects of the game.

I don't quite follow your logic here. Designers are behind the design, and I don't see why that would cause more bugs. And all games are poorly balanced at first during the development, that's why they are playtested and tweaked before being released.

I don't see what's so difficult. Artists are generally responsible for creating art assets, such as animations, models, textures etc, and writers are usually responsible for penning out the specifics of quest goals and npc dialogue. Unless I missed something, these types of people should usually be kept far away from complex things such as scripting an npc to do something more than stand around, designing a combat encounter, or how an entire town behaves.

NPCs aren't scripted, that's the whole point of why they created Radiant AI to begin with. They are just told be at X at time Y with the schedule and then it goes on to do so to the best of it's abilities thanks to Radiant AI. And as I said earlier, game designers are the ones who design the design.

Thing is, Skyrim (and Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas), doesn't include any specific code for NPCs, creatures, locations or anything, and doesn't really include many scripts either (well not compared other games in any case). The games are somewhat unique compared to other games in the regard that everything is coded for general case. This can be seen as a very bad thing and be the cause for some quirks and relatively poor frame rate, but I think it's a perfectly valid trade-off, going with better and easier to develop content, which is a very good thing when making large games, not to mention storage efficient as the games are relatively small considering the size they offer (Skyrim is "only" 6GB). It also proven to be a very good thing for the modding community of these games, it wouldn't have been nearly as large or successful otherwise.

So, a new NPC won't be any different from an old NPC, they share the same AI (although set by different parameters). A new combat encounter won't be different from an old combat encounter, they share the same AI. The groundwork been done from a general level, and that's what the programmers bugfix, the general level, cause that's all that exist. No matter how much new content they add, it will still only work from the general level.

YAY! HURRAY FOR SKYRIM im ok about not geeting info because then it will be a bigger suprise when it arrives

I will say that the recent patch that added water features kind of gives me vertigo when swimming underwater, because the filters will sometimes flicker depending on my angle of view.

I am in the "fix what's broke" boat.

I personally do not buy DLC. Not to turn this into a "RAWR, I HATE DLC!" thread, but I haven't seen anything WORTH buying because what I'm looking for is challenge and excitement, not five different houses I just instantly mysteriously inherited. More Shivering Isles, less thieves den. The point of bringing this up is to basically say that I, personally, do not want them working on stuff that will never see the light of day on my computer, when instead they can fix what I already have paid for. (Smart consumer is smart.)

Things I would rather see than DLC, but doubt would happen, in no particular order of "impossibility":

• Complete the dialogue for marriage for all the missing races, and maybe add 1 or 2 prospects. Even if they didn't want to go all out with it, this would at least 'unbreak' the feature for those races and modders can start tackling it.
  
• Look into and fix the "giant sqaures of invisible water" bug.
  
• Racism. Why is my character immune? >(
  
• Fix the mystery bug that causes games with mods to CTD when trying to Quit To Menu.
  
• Congratulate the Unofficial Skyrim Patch people and find a way to make their fixes official. Benefits all platforms, and we get to have a parade.
  
• More NPCs that ride horses and travel, or otherwise do something / run errands. Oblivion had these, and they were AWESOME. It's like, past the intro, I'm the only person in all of Skyrim who gives those stables any sort of business.
  
• Native support for buying horses and assigning them to particular companions, then ensuring the AI makes the stupid companions STAY on the horses so long as you are mounted.
  
• Allow us to use reasonable abilities underwater. Why do you put slaughterfish in a game where it's frustratingly hard to deal with them? They aren't a 'challenge', they are an annoyance, because trying to kill them OUT of water feels an awful lot like abusing glitches. Water-friendly magics, water-friendly shouts, and clumsy, slowed combat underwater are all acceptable.
  
• Native support for renaming things like horses and pets. You alluded to this in-game, and then I cried when I couldn't physically do it. I CRIED. See the tears? :*(
  
• Khajiit do not have claws in first person. I am sad. (Okay, that is not a huge complaint, but you know it would be a neat, quick-fix spiff in a patch.)
  
• Argonian heads do not play nice with circlets, masks, and almost all helmets. Why do you disfigure argonians? Why?
  
• People do not seem to recognize me for my REAL achievements. You know, like becoming the Archmage.
  
• There is no third option for the Blades-Paarthunax conflict. Guess they weren't as loyal to the Dragonborn as they said they were. Mods have made very simple fixes to this, but I'm sure this would be appreciated if it went cross-platform.
  
• NPCs who have had buckets put over their head should knock them off and become annoyed. They weren't born yesterday. (Sort of)
  
• Tone down crouch-and-disappear mechanics. You can alter AI to have NPCs be alert for a LOT longer and be less willing to assume that arrow sticking out their neck is just their imagination.

...And more.

I love Skyrim. I will love it even more when stuff stops glitching.

Oblivion worked well on the ps3 although it came out a year later. I also believe another company handled the port. Not sure on this though. Perhaps this would have been the wise choice here. Bethesda did an okay job with Fallout 3 for the ps3, although the DLC caused my game to freeze up and lag more. If for whatever reason the ps3 could not handle it(which I doubt) then Bethesda should have just made it for the 360 and PC. I have the game on both the 360 and ps3. The idea was my wife and I could both play. For awhile I tried to enjoy the game on the ps3, but it was a challenge. My wife on the 360 has encountered a few issues, but overall the game runs well. Eventually I gave up on the ps3 version. The patches have helped some, but it is still very inferior overall. I really feel badly for those who don't have access to an internet connection, or have too slow a connection. Hopefully a friend or relative has internet so they can get the patches, otherwise they spent full price on an unfinished game.

Just to point out that I enjoy both consoles, and don't have a favorite. I even enjoy my Wii, especially when playing games like Xenoblade Chronicles. I could care less what system I am playing on.

The whole reason the "sense of entitlement" is there is because it's a well known franchise, especially well known for good quality. Bethesda has set a certain bar with each game, they did it with their first, their second, their first foray into consoles and their first big blockbuster on current gen consoles.

When a company sets a bar like that the populace begin to expect, or "feel entitled" to a certain level of quality, it's basic human nature and it's basic business. If you put out a good product the public is going to expect you to keep putting out a good product. As a designer myself I must adhere to a certain standard I set, especially if that standard is well liked and expected of follow up titles. Why do you think BioWare got so much flak for Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age II? Because the standard the company set for themselves with prior games wasn't hit in the eyes of the community, or even some community. The community who paid their $60 thought they were going to get a game that measured up to that previous bar at the very least.

You're mistaking "entitlement," or rather those who say things like "I should get all DLC for free because I already bought the game," for the entitlement that comes due to expectations. I don't expect Bethesda or any other AAA, AA or indie developer to change a game because I ask them to, I don't expect them to listen to my criticism and take it to heart. What I do expect is a game, especially one in a franchise as big and as historic as TES, that measures up with previous games. We have a right to expect that as a consumer because that is the standard that was set, that is the reputation you are billing yourself with.

Expectations and entitlement are two different things. There are people that expected better and there are people who got exactly what they expected.

Please look at the long, long history of games, especially franchises. Mario has a certain expected quality. Zelda has a certain expected quality. Final Fantasy, Pokemon, Gran Turismo, etc, etc. Let's take one of the biggest debacles in gaming history, the Zelda CDi games. The Zelda name was on the package. People were expecting a game that matched the same level of quality that made that name mean something. You actually think people are in the wrong for expecting those CDi games to have been good and you actually think it's wrong for them to have been outraged that they were so terrible?

Hell, let's not even use such an extreme example, let's use a tamer example: Resident Evil. RE set the standard for survival horror games, but what happened in RE 4 and 5? It slowly drifted away from the survival horror roots and became an action/adventure game. They were still good games, but the standard and expectation of survival horror was gone and people have a right to not be happy about that.

I'm surprised people need dlc so soon after release, i'm 500hrs in and bought on day 1 and still have plenty of stuff to do.

i read it, and agree. i think haters of skyrim create accounts here just to troll us fans
^this again. it's not something we MUST get from the devs. it's something we CAN get.

you paid for a game. expecting bugfixes is rational. expecting adsurb things to be added (i'm sure i saw someone ask for guns somewhere), or for the devs to magically release a fully bug-free dlc that incorporates all of cyrodiil/morrowind with lots of items and huge overhaul to the game engine to be released in a month or two from starting it is insane. after all, bethesda might have other things to do over first few months after skyrim's release, and only started the DLC a month or two ago. no-one knows for sure yet.
be grateful for what you get, look at the positives, not only the negatives. give gamesas some time, let them announce it when they are ready.
and if you have nothing better to do than whine on the forums all day, go for a walk outside. catch up with some friends... irl, not over the internet. perhaps get a hobby. or perhaps a life.

i think that gamesas have the right to take their time, and they do not owe us instant DLC, nor do they need to introduce spears just because everyone wants them.

good work, Bethesda. i mean it.

I agree. I should imagine Beths design team would be working on the DLC while the programming team be working on bug fixes. If they fix bugs, it would fix whatever issues the DLC could have as well essentially. Unless the design team do something completely new and different this could reveal hidden bugs in the game.

Wouldn’t worry about the DLC that much to be honest. I would not be surprised if Beth revealed something on the 30th just to prove a point lol.

Hmm... this is really strange as I, and others, have not had these issues. So, if you really do have a broken product, then you do have a right to complain... to Bethesda. You could also post some user reviews on some other sites like Amazon or Metacritic if your direct appeals to Bethesda don't result in some sort of reparation for you. But, if you're definition of "broken" is just that you don't like certain features of the game, then you probably aren't going to get very far and you're definitely not going to get anywhere complaining about your broken product on a forum... at least not this one. I think Bethesda has a different area to post such things.

Unfortunately, this is where your sweet dreams and flying machines lay in pieces on the ground. It is your opinion that the game doesn't measure up. I'm a TES fan myself and I happen to think that it has (like many other TES fans on this forum). You say po-TAY-to, I say po-TAH-to. And, if you look at the user reviews on sites such as Metacritic and Amazon, you'll find that those who hold to your opinion are very much in the minority. That said, if you really want to become a game designer and actually be successful, you're really going to have to start learning the difference between objectivity and subjectivity... and when you find that your opinion of what makes a great game only appeals to a small band of consumers, you should think about allowing some fresh ideas in.

The simple fact is, every iteration of TES has evolved from the last. That's why I find the arguments of the "purists" (in double-quotes to highlight the irony), who are so opposed to Skyrim, laughable. Intellectual dishonesty and stubborness are flaws, not virtues. They don't provide clarity, they are opaque.

What bothers me most OP is that a user made bug patch is already here (for PC). If that can be done you can't tell me that Bethesda can't spare one or two guys (or gals) to just go through the list of bugs that are already listed for them and make up a patch to fix them. I know it is against Bethesda's long standing policies to polish their games (just look at the MW and OB unofficial patches) but with so many console users now I would have thought they would put more effort into it. And that is what really bugs me, they really don't have to put much effort into it at all. Like I said the list of bugs is already there and many (most actually) are very simple fixes. Bethesda just simply CHOOSES not to take the time to fix them. Surely they can spare two people for the week that it would take to fix 80% of the bugs listed.

As far as the DLC is concerned. It hasn't really concerned me much. Over 550+ hours in and I still find new locations and quests. Added to that the fact that XB gets the DLC first anyway means there really isn't any point in getting too excited over it. I just hope that since the XB gets it first that any major bugs in it will be found (and fixed) before it's released to the other systems.

Hi there The Plebeian! Do hope you're doing swell.


You'll excuse me if I chime in, even if, admittedly, Skyrim is my first TES. I appreciate your much needed discussion and clarification on the neverending duel between subjectivity and objectivity . There are opinions, there are facts and then there are opinions based on facts. However, even if, from a purely intelectual standpoint, I'm not inclned to agree with the so-called purists, I cannot for the life of me say their opinions are entirely subjectively-based. You see one could argue that the absence of classes, removal of X number of attributes/birthsigns, removal of this or that kind of weapon, removal of spellcrafting, all of which had been a staple in past TES games and whose removal is an indisputable fact, that these facts ammount to a disfiguration of the series. So, it would be more accurate to describe the purist's stance as an opinion based on certan facts.

This is true... but I think you missed my point. If the purists were intellectually honest (meaning they weren't lying to themselves), they would have stopped playing any TES games starting with Morrowind. Every subsequent release has introduced changes and new features... it has evolved. So, for the purists to be attacking Skyrim for impurities while at the same time lamenting how much they miss Oblivion, Morrowind, etc., they are displaying a laughable level of contradiction.

Now to your point. I agree. But I have been a fan of TES since Morrowind and I actually prefer the changes Skyrim has made. That doesn't make me any less of a fan of previous TES titles and it doesn't make me some sort of impure traitor to the series. I believe those who fall in my camp have given several well-reasoned explanations as to why the change in the leveling system is actually an improvement. Some may not agree, but that's fine, no one should expect them to. It's a product. Things don't get upgraded to remain the same, that's a simple fact. I suppose that, because of my career path, I tend to give new ideas the benefit of the doubt before attempting to pick them apart.

@ OP, YES I AGREE.

People treat Bethesda like their boyfriends.
Why isn't he talking to me?
Why isn't he telling me what he's been up to?
etc etc..

I agree with this completely.

^This comment above is flame bating yet it stands....Go figure.

No I wouldn't be on here complaining. I would have a copy of the xbox version of the game. I'm not some little kid/console waring fan boy. And trying to deflect the blame onto Sony is a truly pathetic straw man argument. Just because they (bethesda) fail to properly port a game isn't a reflection on the quality of Sony's product.

Your argument=fail.

Personally I never had the obsession with having new information all the time. I rather have them inform us at their own terms.
They will give us information when they are ready and if they miss a date htey previously said or implied they were going to release some information it is not the end of the world.

DLC>Bug fixes :3 i am stupid

Its a game....

If anyone here is seriously that caught up with needing more at this point, I'd suggest that you need to fill your life with something more substantial.
It should be relaxing and enjoyable, not as stressful as this thread is.

Personally I do not want a dlc with bad writing... have obsidian make it...

I am so sorry Bethesda that you sold me a broken product. It will not happen again.