Unfortunately, you only made them $60.

The thing is, why the sense of entitlement?

When you pay for a product, particularly one that is entertainment, you are taking the risk that you may not be entirely satisfied.

Yes, someone who isn't satisfied certainly has the right to express their opinion, but there is no reason for a sense of entitlement. And that's ultimately my problem on this forum - not that there are people who are unhappy with Skyrim, but their utter sense of entitlement about it. Someone in another thread stated "There sure are a lot of victims that play this game", and that's the truth. People who are unhappy with this game act as though they have been victimized, as though Bethesda has committed an injustice against them.

The problem comes from the constant condescending attitude and insulting language, that the game was "dumbed down", "hand holding",marketed towards "casuals", "console gamers", or "COD kids".

Negative criticism is okay, because hey, NO product is above criticism. It's not the criticism that I have a problem with. To be completely honest, I don't totally disagree with a lot of the complaints around here - I think the loss of Spellmaking svcks, I think the loss of many spell effects svcks, I would never be against more dialogue options and choices on how to complete a quest, the idea for toggles for kill cams is not a bad idea, followers could certainly be improved, guild questlines could be longer, I wouldn't complain if the series lost quest and map POI markers, so on and so forth. However, I understand why many of these changes were made, and in some ways, I agree with why these changes were made. I may think that it's unfortunate to have to lose those options, but I understand why. And I don't let these changes ruin the game for me, because hey, I believe there was a lot of great stuff added as well.

Most of the time, it's not the complaint I have an issue with, rather than the attitude behind the complaining. The attitude that because these things weren't done in the game (for whatever reasons), that the game is "dumb", that it's meant for "COD kids" (as if there is something inherently wrong with Call of Duty or people who play it), blatant lying about the actual reality of the game, constant generalizations that because there are a few people unhappy that means it's a global truth that surrounds the game, and you name any of the other insults that get thrown out around here.

Talking on a forum is not the same as talking in person. ALL we have here is the language. We can't hear tone, we can't read facial expressions, all we can go off of is the language. So when people make claims and use language that they are global truths, one cannot assume that they mean "in my opinion" when we have nothing to draw that conclusion off of. When people make claims that the game is "dumbed down", one cannot assume that they are doing so in jest (I also call World of WarCraft "dumb", when I'm joking around to my friend who plays it constantly. However, I would never have an honest opinion that World of WarCraft is somehow "beneath" me, and that people who play it are a lower class of gamer than I am.), instead it comes off very insulting towards those of us that do like the game, it comes off as though we only like it because we're dumb, and we need dumb games to be entertained.

And I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you dislike a product so much ("you" general, not "you" specific) I don't understand the need to be on its forums to talk about it. People say it's because they want to make their voices heard for the future of the series, but even that is bogus in my eyes. Star Wars Galaxies was, at one time, my favorite MMORPG of all time (and Star Wars Galaxies before the CU and NGE still is my favorite MMORPG of all time) and one of my favorite games of all time. When the changes were made, and the game became something that I didn't enjoy anymore, I left the game, and I left the forums... because the product was no longer something that I wanted it to be, there was no reason for me to linger on the forums and spread my negativity. And I don't see why people who don't like what Elder Scrolls has become would stick around and spread their negativity through here. You don't like the direction of Elder Scrolls, that svcks, and you are entitled to your opinion, but when it's obvious that you are no longer the audience, then really, your opinion doesn't matter. I was no longer the audience that Sony was shooting for with Star Wars Galaxies, so my opinion no longer mattered.

I don't say that to silence negative opinions or negative posts. They absolutely have a place, and people absolutely should post them. But they should do so without the negativity and condescending attitude that accompanies it.

I read every word of that. I expect most people won't.

I agree with you completely.

i don't get were every one is coming with all these bugs cause me personally i've only had a few that actually got my attention. and also bugs arn't nessaseraly a bad thing imo cause there usually funny as [censored] when they happen. actually i kinda love bugs and glitches some times they make playing the game that much more better lol.

oh and the only bug that actually caught my attention and made me kinda pissed off about it was when you do a certain quest for the companions you or i got a glitch that when ever i would dule weild only my character would start going all slow-mo. and then every one i was fighting would all just start hitting me and and there was nothing i could do about it until i put my weapons away.


so yeah thats the only thing that they should have fixed oh yeah that and the fact the the db hood don't actually have masks that pissed me off to no end when the mask part of the db hoods wouldn't show up. so yeah just those 2 are the only thing that ever really made me mad bug and glitch wise.


but back to the OP i compleatly agree with you.

The condescending attitude comes from a combination of being told to shut-up and Condescending attitude from those who don't necessarily agree with the statements. often taking it personal. who gives a ***** about the terms dumbing down/COD crowd/Handholding etc etc? its a Forum. those are no more productive that saying Morrowhiners, fanatics,fanbois and the legion of other inane statements that have nothing to do with nothing.

There have been EPOCHS of threads detailing coherently and without flaming or calling out a group for the worlds Problems and are STILL derailed with said inane statements for no reason other than not sharing the view. it is as bad as you want it to be, if you're gonna hold a Microscope on what you perceive is negative exactly what more do you expect?

What would be exceedingly useful for all stripes of folk on this board is to look at it as a discussion, not a tour de force to spear anyone who makes a point of something good or bad. I mean hell right now there are all of 3 threads on the first page detailing issues, 7-9 threads talking about random topics as intended and various miscellaneous discussions talking about what are you playing now or something to that effect. wheres the negativity overflowing the boards?

and of that perceived negativity why does it need to be beaten with a stick? positive/negative aren't inherently good/bad, and Beth at this point in the 12 years I've watched them couldn't give a hoot and are none the lesser for it. if they aren't smashing "complainers" what right does anyone else have to do so?

I'm fine with criticisms, provided that they're constructive. For example 'REMOVING ATTRIBUTES IS THE WORST THING BETHESDA EVER DID' irritates me, and most likely many others, to no end. 'I'd like to see attributes included in Skyrim, combined with the current perk system' is absolutely fine, because it's proper criticism, not plain old whining

Just my two Septims.

I like BGS, I really do. I don't like EA/Bioware. BGS got full retail in pounds sterling for Skyrim from me. Bioware didn't get a penny from me for ME3 or Dragon Age 2. That is thanks where it's due, in a form that actually matters.

[And for the record, Thanks anyway Beth, for the really rather wonderful action/adventure with some rpg game you gave us that I have had hundreds of hours entertainment from. No thanks whatsoever for the best rpg coupled with the audio/visual experience that you could have made but didn't.]

The thing is, it's not about Bethesda, it's about the enjoyability of these forums, and it's not enjoyable when any point of contention is flooded with "dumbed down", and "casuals". It is insulting on a message board for the same reason it is insulting if I were to walk up to you in person and call you dumb because of something you liked. Words do have value.

And knowing that, why do people constantly have to be negative? Why do they have to resort to "dumbing down"? You know, for this attitude that Bethesda "dumbed the game down for the casual console kiddies", there sure is a very basic and simple thought process going into these criticisms. If these people want their games to be soooo complex, because they want to use their minds and not have the game be simple, then why are their arguments simple? Why can't they better articulate their arguments and criticisms into something that isn't mindless bashing and condescending attitude? You cannot have a proper conversation with someone when they don't want to deal with intelligent, rational discussion and instead want to resort to emotional sensationalism and condescending claims of "dumbed down" and pitting me as just a "casual console kiddie" because I play my Skyrim on a console, and don't like attributes, and do like map markers.

Express your negative views of the game, but don't do so with a condescending attitude.


Exactly.

But there are too many people on this forum that just say "Spellmaking was removed? Magic is ruined!", or "Attributes were removed? No more RPG attributes!" and totally put their fingers in their ear and ignore any opinion to the contrary, even well thought out and rational counters.

Rushed???? 6 months is a long time my friend. Especially for not having the slightest news on it. All I really want right now is a trailer and a date. I don't need the dlc this month but an update is a must.

Beings that my PS3 copy has been unplayable since basically release. IT'S ALL DLC-NEW TO ME!

well said best thing i've read all day

6 months might seem long, but remember this is an age of dlc which is already on the disc at launch, for which consumers as a whole seem quite content to pay to unlock. Skyrim dlc is being written after the fact. Disregarding bugs and testing, just thinking of content, we paid 100% for 100% of a game, unlike other companies who charge 100% for 95% of the game they have already made, then charge extra for the last 5%, but release it real quick.

More thanks to BGS for none of that day one malarkey. Good on you for that.

ok agreed. but...

Duly noted. Now. I paid $60 for a game/entertainment that has not been entertaining me not because I'm at odds with its artistic style, storytelling, gameplay, dynamics, etc. I'm at odds with it because my game has been rendered unplayable since release. Now, I guess one could call me "entitled" since that word is flung around so often recently like it's the new "viral" or "epic," however I don't find it unruly to ask that a product be reliable quality before it is released to the general public or at the very least included a big disclaimer on it saying that it more than likely WILL NOT WORK. Similar to how cigarettes/tobacco products say they may give you cancer. If that makes me "entitled" then so be it. Had there been such a warning I would NOT have made this purchase. I can't speak for everyone. But I wouldn't have. Nope.

This.

DLC is not an entitlement. We paid for our product. The DLC is an additional add on product later down the line. Not an entitlement.

I would rather have DLC as I have never had the any of these infamous game crashing bugs that people speak of and I am 300 hours in on my main and I bought it at midnight on 11/11/11 and played until midnight 11.13.11 with only an hours nap. I often wonder if some made them up to get attention (That is just how little bugs I have experienced).

But they don't want to tell us. Thats their business.

I would rather they fix what currently doesn't work, than go ahead and start working on creating even more things that won't work right.

I can't speak for unplayability because I have had zero problems with my Skyrim. So I don't know what to say. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying I haven't had any issues with Skyrim, or any other Bethesda release for that matter, across multiple platforms.

That said, an unplayable product is a perfectly valid complaint. If you can't play your game, I'd suggest trying to return it to GameStop, or wherever you bought it, and getting a refund. And if you've had it for too long to take it back, then that's your own fault. But I'm not saying that's what happened.

In Bethesda's defense, I am assuming you are playing on the PS3, and reports indicate that the PS3 is not a system that can really handle a game like Skyrim, because of how the PS3 is built. So, perhaps Bethesda could have not released the game on PS3, or delayed the PS3 release, if there were technical incompatibilities, but in that case, I suspect that you, and many other people complaining, would be on here complaining about how Bethesda is ignoring the PS3 market by delaying the launch or foregoing it altogether, so Bethesda loses either way because of Sony's console design.

wow i guess that guy in green got his comment taken off or some thing any one else see that lmfao. i just want to say to that guy why were you even here if you hated the game so much lol.


i mean if theres a game i don't like i would never go to its forems because i don't like it so theres no reason for me to even go there. the only forum site i ever go to is well bethesda cause it has the 2 games i like the most out of every game i've ever played. that being of course TES and fallout. the only ones i've ever been to that werent them 2 was assassin's creed.

why because i don't like any other game enough to want to talk about it or post my ideas or openions of it .

i don't get people .

Negative opinions about Skyrim are fine, especially if it's constructive critisism, as long the people are civil about it. Sometimes there are a lot of inappropriate language involved though, and that's not fine.
It's different people working on those different things though. Programmers fixing bugs that results in new patches and designers & artists making new content. Artists can't suddenly become bugfixers, and there are a lot of artists working at Bethesda.

Now I would never stoop to dismissing the anger and frustration of those whose games aren't fit for purpose, I have had my share of nuisance level bugs and know things aren't perfect, but I will say this is nothing new. I am old enough to remember that Jet Set willy required patching on the Commodore 64, and let's face it, the scale of the games is different enough that emergent phenomena is an entirely applicable term.
Whether they have done enough, quickly enough, to fix major issues I leave to the opinions of those so affected, but in any game this complex, glitches will appear, it's the nature of the beast.

Different teams? Maybe. But that's never stopped development before from pulling people from their tasks, to come work on something else that is considered of greater priority. And bugs, and other more complex coding issues more often than not require the attention of the people who actually programmed the content in the first place...who likely would be programming new content as well.

Fair enough. If the game was unplayable, you would have been entitled to a refund at release. Not from your retailer, from the publisher. I called to make sure. In the very same EULA that states that you can't take your product back for a refund, there is a line with a phone number to call if the product does not work at all. It's probably too late to use this number now, but for the future, always remember that your software issues need to be handled by the publisher at their 1800 number, not by the retailer you bought it from.

Just FYI.

Also fair enough. However, I am curious what platform you are on? The 360 and the PC have extremely high playability rates. There would be no need for a disclaimer saying anything to the effect of "more than likely," because the vast majority of the games work just fine. There are bugs and glitches, but the game does work.
If you are on a PS3, I don't want to comment because apparently there are some very serious hardware issues that I'm not really qualified to talk about. That's another animal.

Also, if you are on any platform, there are a plethora of official and unofficial support options. Have you availed yourself of them yet?


Cigarettes and tobacco have known risks associated with them. Often with software, you have a huge factor of unknown risks. Furthermore, and more importantly, software risks are not hazardous to your health.

I own a terrible microwave. It's probably the worst microwave ever manufactured and sold in America. However, it did not come with a warning on the box that says "Warning: This microwave will probably svck."

That's because the manufacturer is under no obligation to make the microwave to any particular quality standard, other than preventing it from harming you. They can make a terrible machine if they want to. It's my duty as the customer to correct for that.

New content isn't really programmed. Anyone can add new content to the game without doing any kind of programming thanks to the public release of Creation Kit, which also happens to be the very tool Bethesda themselves used to build the game world, and will use to make the future DLCs.