That's the part I take issue with. The Game master is the game itself. You're not adopting the role of the character if his abilities are completely dependant on your ability to click fast enough or with proper timing. Or your ability to perform a minigame. Those are action bases. When those are the entire base of the game, the game isn't an RPG, its an action game. You can role-play in an action game, but that doesn't make it an RPG.

It's pretty much a matter of, if you ask a hundred different people what an RPG is, you'll get a hundred different answers. Well, it's not really that simplistic, but you get what I mean. Any game is what YOU make of it. Sure ther are certain basic conventions involved in how an RPG is defined, but even those can be turned on their heads. If I say Skyrim is an RPG to me, then it is an RPG, and no-one can tell me i'm wrong, Best they can do is tell me it's not their idea of an RPG.

This, I agree with.

Someone once posted an article about how there's two kinds of RP gamers. One is rule based, one is role based. The rule based players want restrictions, reactions and something to work with, otherwise the game feels empty and they feel as though they might as well be playing pretend by themselves, since the game is doing little to help. After all, how can it be called a role-playing game if the game provides no roles for us to fall into? These guys prefer having restrictions like only being able to attempt a lock if their lockpicking skill is high enough.
The latter group, role players, want a canvas to play with. They want the game to provide them with tools to create on their own. They do NOT want to be limited however; they want to put the restrictions on themselves, not have the game do it for them. For them, rules can feel like a hinderance to their character, their vision and their creative ability.



I think it's safe to say that this game is a definite disappointment for rule RPG gamers and wouldn't be classified as an RPG by them, as it provides practically NOTHING for them. The Role RPG players? Well I don't consider myself one of them so I can't say.
Either way, whether you want to call it an RPG or not, I think it's important to bring up that a good half of the RPG population says "no."

It sounds to me like maybe your consideration involves turn based strategy.

It sounds to me like maybe your consideration involves turn based strategy.

a rpg to me is a game which i can role play a character.

but in the end its jsut a lable that really has less meaning than fps does.

if i enjoy the game then i will continue playing, reguardless of the genre.

Not Really. TBS you send commands to units, but you're never intended to be role-playing as them. You can role-play that you're their CO, but that's about it.(Unless you want to go really crazy with it and RP that you're some hivemind, ethereal being that takes over the minds of different people)

In something like Wii Sports. I can RP that I'm some high end bigshot tennis player. It is decidedly NOT an RPG. This is the distinction that you seem to be having issues with.



This. It shouldn't matter to people that it's not an RPG.

The RPG genre died out many years ago. Skyrim's a great action/adventurer game that harkens a bit to a past genre, but is no longer defined by it.

Computer-rpgs never lived imo. Without a GM (or DM) it's just computer generated doll-playing.

In a world where people think eating and sleeping and other tedious tasks are rp-elements, everything can be sold as such.

I welcome the action elements and the player based skills. At least it gives me a sense of playing a game. Rp or not - I don't care anymore. I just wanna have fun.

Actually, I'm not having any issues, just a different opinion. And no, by my measures and understanding, Wii Sports is not an RPG. Skyrim, however, is an RPG. You say that if my (the player's) abilities dictate the actions and outcome then it is not an RPG. Who controls the characters skills? It is my decisions and my ability to make sound decisions. It's the player's decisions that dictate what skills are started at a higher level based on a pool of stats in other RPGs. Theses starting stats are determined by playing in Skyrim, vice sliding/clicking. Based on your definition of an RPG, You can pigeon-hole yourself into a certain skill set which, by design, defines your characters actions and outcome based on the characters skills, but still, it is how the player uses those skills, that ultimately determines the outcome. In Skyrim's iteration of an RPG, you are free to seek any path, regardless of previously chosen skills, thus enabling you to play the role any which way you decide. If you have the mental capacity to only focus on certain skills, then you pave your own way to making it the RPG you see fit.

How much actual role-playing in Eye of the Beholder? Almost none npc, very few choices, side quests? ways to solve a problem? they used AD&D rules so it make it an RPG pr definition. However very few options compared to modern games, will say sims 2 is way more of an role-playing game.

Morrowind is not an rpg in your definition, neither is the Gothic games.
In both games ranged combat require you to aim and hit the target, this require player skill towards an moveable target. Movement during combat was important in Morrowind, spears had the benefit of being able to attack out side the enemy range.

In all elder scroll games and gothic you have to be close enough to hit the enemy with an sword, to far away and you miss. One change from Daggerfall and Morrowind to Oblivion and Skyrim was that instead of having an hit chance based on skill and fixed damage you got damage based on skill. Dps should be the same if balanced.

I do consider Mass Effect a RPG, but Mass Effect 2 surely isn't. I agree with you RPGs are basically dead. We live in the shooter age. Its sad, but a lot of gamers are intimidated by RPG stats. Seems like game companies today are catering to that crowd instead of us hardcoe rpg gamers.

I′d say what makes an RPG great is more the mind that plays it. Any open ended game can be rp:d if you choose so.

I don't believe Skyrim is an actual RPG because its near impossible to spin any kind of interesting life story (or an addition to one thats already been started) for any of my characters. The only successful character I've had in this way was my main character (out of the 300 or so that I've always recreated as the games go on) and that was only possible by cleverly tying the Civil War story, the Companions, the Main Quest, and a couple specific side quests together. And even then, I still had to come up with a lot in my head to make it really feel like I spun some sort of story, and that shouldn't be at all. If I'm going to use my imagination as the main drive for spinning a story then I may as well skip the game and create a story thats absolutely perfect. Which I in fact do a lot, but that misses the point of playing RPG's. I play them because they not only give a visual, real-world representation of my story (as I fail at story writing and unless I already have something to work with (like a model) or if its a house, I'm a terrible artist) but also introduce situations for my character to react to that aren't, in the end, being manipulated by me.

Stats don't matter so much (though they do a lot towards setting up your character in the most specific way so that your character is exactly who you want them to be) as the choices and consequences do, as well as the general depth of what exists in the game. Skyrim gives your character very little choice in what he does beyond the manner in which you slay your enemies and whether or not he'll bother to be railroaded for however long a particular quest takes to complete, and while that'd be cute if I was trying to role-play a mindless killer (which I find massively boring), it doesn't work for virtually every other character. But that wouldn't be so bad if the choices you're railroaded into actually had some sort of impact that didn't last all of 5 seconds or however long you decide to hold onto that generic magic weapon.

Depth. What depth? The only real depth that exists in Skyrim can only be found in books, and that provides very little towards spinning a story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VqYPY7jvy0 I found some new http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIppXw6TYI0s!

No that's not the same as the criterion. Because no matter what skill your character has, you will always be successful in your attempts to do something based on your own ability. Does it make sense to you that stabbing an unarmed person in the face does 1 point of damage because your skill is low? Or in the case of lockpicking give a character with level 100 lockpicking to a complete newbie(Or someone not very well coordinated) and watch how well they do with it. Did the character suddenly develop sudden-onset tremors and amnesia?

You can role-play in any game. In COD maybe I decide I'm actually a double-agent working for the enemy, and when I come across friendlies I decide to take them out.


Morrowind is a mixed bag. It has action elements but applies RPG standards to them(You have to tell your character the right place to attack, but whether or not he successfully attacks is based on his ability). Thats one of the few games I might consider action/RPG to be a plausible classification.

Sorry but I'm just getting annoyed with this perception that shooters are this absolute crap that only bros in college dorms play. As someone who grew up playing RPGs and later found enjoyment in playing games like Madden and CoD (for competitive gaming) I find it annoying that my kind are seen as players who can't enjoy a RPG.

The culture of games is constantly evolving and cross-breeding:

The concept of building a story through different choices and branching storylines comes from the classic choose-your-own-adventure-book mechanics. Combining that with strategy game elements and role-playing game character building and you ended up with the classic computer role-playing games. So even Baldur′s Gate and original Fallout are really not pure role-playing games, but cross-breeds of different expressions of gaming.

I find the entire role-playing discussion pointless because people only use role-playing in their arguments to make themselves sound more serious and important by refering to role-playing elements. Instead of specifically saying what they don′t like they say that they want more role-playing elements...as if characters, attributes, or stats, or classes, or choices are exclusively role-playing elements.

Don't let it bother you. I've been playing games since the 2600 and have enjoyed every genre so long as it was good game. Elitists will be elitists. Nothing to be done about it.

Its true what you say about Eye of the Beholder, but only with a 2012 hat on.
With a 1990 hat on, its practically the summum of RPG, and that is the context in which it should be viewed as the game and its limitations are of that era. The gameplay and character progression lands it square on the RPG tile.

I have not played Gothic, but I must say that aside from Daggerfall, Morrowind is the finest RPG I have ever played.
I do not agree that the simple fact of aiming means it sides on player skill. Other factors are more important and you do not get more RPG than chance based hits reliant on skill and attribute levels.

As I have said above, this is just my subjective opinion. Feel free to disagree but please dont tell me I think Morrowind isnt an RPG lol.

Edit, to J'Ram-Ku:
I like a shooter sometimes. I find I can really unwind after a hard day by just mindlessly blasting enemies and going from level to level. There is a statisfaction in that.
But sometimes I also like games that make me think, that use my problem solving abilities and my creativity.
Im a great fan of the Myst series for instance, but I also like turn-based strategy and, used to, RPG's.
Especially in an RPG I used to be able to let loose a lot of my creativity and thinking-brain abilities.
What Im not really a fan of is the modern RPG, that blends a lot more with the action genre and has gotten rid of all those things that attracted me to them in the first place, such as the chance to fail.
Not just fail reload and win, but fail horribly. Because I got such statisfaction out of finally getting it and making a build that did work excellently at all levels.
I wish game makers would remember that there is a market for deeper games, and that not everything needs to be like everything else and focused on instant gratification.

I'm not saying all shooter fans are like that, but the ones today are. I'm mostly talking about kids. I don't see shooters as absolute crap but most of the ones that come out today are. Its not your kind that can't enjoy rpgs, its casual gamers and kids mostly. Don't let my now playing list signature fool you. I am a shooter fan as well I play Resistance, Crysis, Battlefield, etc. but I am getting sick of the amount of shooters that are coming out. Thus why I dubbed this gen "the shooter age".

No, game companies cater to a crowd that they can please given the limitations that a computer-coded environment can provide. Because in order to please the hardcoe gamers the game has to be delivered with your personal GM with the ability to re-code the entire environment everytime the player decides he wants to make a choice outside of the box.

like i've said before, skyrim is a roleplaying sim. it's an action adventure game with some very simple rpg elements.
yes, you use your mind to play a character. that's it. it's a very simple game that doesn't need much thought to play.

roleplaying game and rpg have 2 very separate meanings/definitions for many people. they are not the same.
roleplaying is simple and player-driven. rpg is more complex and is character-driven.

all you need to think about in skyrim is who you want to roleplay and then fill it in.
mass effect is far from either roleplaying or rpg. you are a predetermined character that you give some predetermined upgrades to.

Would you be able to exspress what would allow your own story telling in games like this because, i cant think of an instance, im not knocking im interested, because we seem to have had vastly different exsperences with skyrim but similar interest(i too make up storys, id like to say im a wrighter/artist but ill come back to you on the wrighter part when i get more than just my poetry published, i studied art at college/uni for 5 years and produce a series of books that are a cross over of illustrated novels and conventional storytelling alone side source material to back up the fiction i create for the world.) Ive got characters from:
my main playthrough nord that leads the companions and completed the civial war,
to my pasifist monk that came to skyrim to get away from a life of violence to study at the mages college,
i have a dark elf mercinary that was paid to come to skyrim by influencial partys to help with the cival war,
i have a master thief that only kills when really pushed to and is disapointed by such out comes,
i have a bosmer hunter that plays the npc role doesnt do dangerous quest only helps people in logical situations and just eaks out a living hunting,
i have a bandit that raids rival bandits and lives in his fort with his fellow bandit clan gathering food and mead for his brothers,
an alchemist (npc type) that has worked up his alteration spells in pursuit of scientific magics and mines minerial for anolysis, he started to transmute and is thinking of setting up as a jewller on side as his father was a watch maker,
i have a high elf that is a secret thalmor spie that not even the resident thalmor of skyrim are aware of, he has alot of reconisence to do but still does quests to help hide is identity,
an orc shaman that sort out the dark brotherhood to become an assassin to gain revenge on the family that betrayed her, and there fore punishes the orcs of skyrim in cruel and unusual ways.
I have more planned but like to get to between lvl 20-50 before finishing or making more. ive only deleted 1 character and that was a thief i didnt like too agro.
The only thing that i see can spoil the rp is quest dialougue that in previous beth games allowed alot more illusion of game world manipulation, i still feel there alot of potenial, i came to this conclusion after a slight hiastus were i too felt skyrim had nothing more/less to offer than previosly, but i found with a good plan and under stand of the game, ive had 100s of hour of inthrailing game play already.

knockknock-

all those different characters you play, imo, proves the point that this is not a rpg, but, a roleplaying game.

everything is the same, except, the player approach to the game. nothing changes except your mindset.

Role-playing is just another way of saying, "acting". When you watch a movie or TV show, all those people you see are role-playing.

To me, a role-playing game has ZERO to do with whether your character's skills or yours are more important. That really just determines how you play the game, as opposed to how you play the role.

A good role-playing game to me is one in which I can easily fall into the world in my mind, and imagine that I am the character on the screen. A good interface can help with that, but by far the most important aspect is the story. Is it compelling? Do I really feel like I need to hurry off to Whiterun and beg for the Jarl's assistance for Riverwood? for example. Does it feel like I am the hero of an epic tale (what's the point of playing a role-playing game if you aren't the protagonist, after all)? Do I feel like I personally am involved in the struggle that's gripping the land?

For me, Skyrim does all that. Sure, it could be better, and some times you have to over-look certain things that break immersion, but over-all, I really do feel like I AM the Dovahkiin, and if I don't save the world, who will?

I'm playing a game right now where I am truly a thief and murderer, even before the trip to Helgen. I really did deserve to be going to the block for my crimes. I was wanted pretty much anywhere in the empire for crimes ranging from pickpocketing to confidence games, to murder. The attack on Helgen destroyed records, and it was assumed that I was killed in the attack. I took the opportunity to assume a new identity, and after helping out Ralof and his sister, I was planning to head to Riften to begin a whole new life of crime. Discovering the power of the thu'um was a bonus. Right now, my character sees it as simply a way to gain power. Eventually though, after becoming a wealthy thief and killer for hire, and then taking revenge on the empire (although it was deserved, I can't shake the feeling I had as my neck lay across the block, and I have a desire to strike out at those I feel put me there), I will eventually begin to see that there are more important things that my own personal desire for wealth and power, and realize that I have a responsiblity to try to stop Alduin. At first, it is just the realization that all my power won't help me if he destroys the world, but I will grow as a person and come to see that the world really is worth saving all on its own merits. So far, it's been a whole lot of fun playing that role.