You here alot of this(title) but i fail to see it, skyrim has its failings no dought, none more jarring that missed oppotunitys or lessons learnt but forgotten, but really what makes an rpg great in my oppinion is not the classic slate of statistic but the mind that built it. So with the topic of old style rpg and beth aimed to change, lets get on to the points.
(this topic is not about stream linning to increase audience, that is for another topic, please do not derail on that sole point but feel to include it as a reference as its a fair point and does cripple certain tools like speech for example, with that aside lets continue.)
So you start with no skill? but can do everything in game? seem skilled to me, i could work with alchemical ingriedients cast metal strech leather, weild a sword/axe/mace/bow/sheild with enough skill to easily kill a carear fighter like a bandit. From the simple like to ride a horse, to the advanved of casting destruction and restoration magic, along with the knowledge to break down and enchant items. I seem it be less of a clean slate than previously disscussed.
This game is an rpg, anyone who thinks other wise dont need an rpg, they need a book or a movie obviously as there are plenty of character development opertunitys avaiable.
To quote another forum member bethesdas games are only as good as the player.

There some great ideas in this forum and lots of missed oppertunity im skyrim but the amount of ppl claiming no rpg mech an no character dev, must really be thin on imagination and creativity. Sad fact; you cant role play if you cant play a role...Tools are one thing but where do they stop, yes trait, attributes ect are all very well but when is enough enough?
I dont see it, i see skyrim as a missed oppotunity but not as a failure to rp, that is the failure of the gamer not the game, at least not this game.
Buff what you want nerf what you dont, include what you want exclude what you dont, set ypur own Bounderies and build Oppotunitys to stretch and mold the game to your character, be it a bold warrior or passive monk, an idea from a franchise or an avatar of your self, these things are not a list of numbers the numbers are mierly the constraint if the games mechanics they offer balence, they are tools to be used or excluded, the choice is the players, how far you can take that very much depends on you.

If you like it maybe you can help others get more from skyrim or if you feel its to late for skyrim maybe you can build a formuler for the next tes game.

I agree pretty much with everything you said. If someone says that skyrim is not an rpg might as well say that forza motorsport isn't a racing game.

yeah its strange how some people react badly to change, good or bad its what you got and it can be built on but not changed, being negative to the exstent of saying you cant rp in it will only convince your selve spoil it for you and be awaste of your money.

Im hoping we can create a thead that gives ideas an sudjestions of how to rp!

skyrim is most certainly an rpg though i am sad that the core stats that distinguish an rpg are gone from the visible slate it doesn't take from the fact its an rpg. i agree completely with what you said i just wish they kept some of the stat slate and some of the misc. skills we lost this should be fixed in the next game we should get the core stats back

Yeah i agree the more states of play in the game the more open it can become, they are usefull tools, but just that tools, not end game by any means.
The opening post was meant to be a bit mean so ppl would be inspired to prove me wrong and maybe be drawn into a thread that can be developed into a listing of variable playstyles and sudjestions and ideas to increase rp.
Ill start the ball rolling with one of many characters i have,( i posted this the other day to help some one struggling to do the same )

My recomended build for limited or no kills/pasifist monk/pure thief character:
Sneak, most enemys can just be by past.
Pickpocket, for those quest items npc have on them.
Illusion, needed for calm, occasionaly fear, also you can use frenzy to great effect but its not really no kills then as the frenzy leads to there death, (justifie your ideas within your rp tho when doimg the mages guild it wouldnt let me pickpocket falmer so i had to get one of then killed, so i noticed the room was tier and with weak falmer at the bottom and the boss at the top, my character sensed disadence within the group and ignighted that spark, one of the weaniers won leaving me free to take the item off the boss) muffle and invisability to supliment sneak is also a gud idea.
Speech, as not killing high speech helps you get more money from less loot and lets yoy pass dialogue checks to help you in certain quests.
Restoration, turn undead is usefull begore you get lvl 100 in illusion, sometimes when all fails you just need to heal, also later when you get more magica wards are ok. Healing hands for friendlys or enemys that get hurt or need tanking.
Block, maybe if you want to use shields.

Gear: no armour, its noicy and slows you. also the robes avaliable come with magic buffs. if you want armour stick to boots and gloves for i lil bit of protection. Staff of calming, for when you run out of magic. Staff of drain magica for those powerful enemys that need nerfing while you figure out what to do. staff of healing hands for tanking others. Non leathal poisons are great for helping you down enemys, i use a long bow and practise arrows or directly adminster some with pickpocket, runaway ect. Shields can be usefull early on untill you can cast wards well. No.1 thing is patients, save often, and keep an eye on the stats page to see if u screw up.

its great fun i really didnt think it was going to be but theres a great sence of power from the subversion than can be achieved with illusion. i love seeing prison pertrolls, calm everyone and release the prisonier. lol get the thalmor rillied up about talos, then calm. me 'i can worship any god i wish' /calm thalmor/ "you can worship any god you wish". lol master jedi. You dont even have to kill dragons simply being there gets you the soul just be a healer, and what self respecting jedi pasifist would be without force push. lol

Some times you need to try things out side your comfort zone to truely exspand your horizons.

Try not to get hung up on difficulty and challenge, this is your game no one is judging you just make sure it remains fun, use the slider to help with your role, be it a demigod or joe everyman.

Now i have alot of ideas but i want to get others involved and not blanket the thread in walls of my own text. Next any one?

Its an RPG, but a very poor one.
Its more of an action/adventure with RPG elements.

That being said, Im of the opinion that the RPG genre is dead.
Proof: People seriously insist Mass Effect is an RPG.
If that is considered an RPG these days, then RPG's are dead.

In your opinion, which games are true RPGs.

Morrowind, Eye of the Beholder, Menzoberanzan, those sort of games.
Games with oodles of stats, a lot of customisation and a lot of choice.
Games where success depends on character skill, not player skill. As soon as player skill is involved, its not RPG.
Mind that this is all just my opinion, not set in stone.

Edit:A learning curve is also important. Because an RPG tends to have a lot of mechanics and choices, its not the sort of game you pick up and play. A very large part of the fun of Morrowind for me was figuring out: 'Oo I can do this too? Awesome!' An RPG, in my mind, is a game aimed more at advlts who like to use their problem solving abilities, instead of a game for young people who want to shoot things and win and never get stuck.

This could be of use to others to see what other games offer that you can sudo in skyrim, Merier, your posts are good, i look out for your avatar in posts, you seem to have a good grasp of tes, what tips could you offer, lets not start an arguement lets construct somthing everyone can take away with them.

This is actually a very comprehensive way of putting it. I definitely agree, though I also realize the sad truth that there is not much financial potential for such games in today's console-dominated market.

Disagree.

An RPG is more than character stats. It's about developing your character through his/her actions. Sure, I can imagine I'm a paladin who's fighting to protect the people, but after raiding that undead-ridden dungeon, what impact does it have on the world? Do people start to love me? Not in Skyrim they don't.


Please explain. Mass Effect is equal parts TPS/RPG. You can create your character, level him up, choose your skills, roleplay through dialogue and actions... How is this not an RPG?


Mhm. Try not levelling up your character at all in ME and see how far you get.

To me, I take the term Role-Playing Game at face value. I am playing the role of the character I have created. In Skryim, it is true that you do not have a pool of points to distribute as you see fit by clicking on arrows and sliders. Instead, you play the game to move those "sliders" or "arrows", which, to me, is funner than clicking arrows and moving sliders. Also, by choosing a race, you can add points to certain skills which, although they are preset, still function as a vessel of choise. As far as player skill, does it not require player skill to choose the correct actions with the chosen character abilities?

Disclaimer:
Everything I say about things like these is my opinion and not law-from-upon-high.
Even though I have the tendency to write in an unapologetic and to-the-point manner, that should not be taken to mean I imply everyone else is wrong.
(I really should make that my signature.)

I dont want to start an argument either. The reason Im on this forum a lot is because I enjoy other peoples views and opinions on a series that is close to my heart.

Edit, to Olath: To me, Mass Effect is a shooter.
Its a shooter with a great story and its a shooter with RPG elements slapped on, but it still boils down to a HALO-esque or DOOM-esque game.
Its not an RPG because player skill is too much involved, and because too much emphasis lies on shooting things. I dont really remember, but I dont think it had puzzles at all.

It's rather simple.

RPG - The character's abilities determine the outcome of the actions you decide on. (You take on the role of the character, if the character doesn't know martial arts, but you do, it stands to reason that the role you're playing does NOT know how to perform a 360 roundhouse kick with ease.)

Action - Your own abilities determine the outcome of the actions you decide on. Typically this just is represented by good hand/eye coordination.

You can say Skyrim is an RPG, but only in the sense that you're playing as yourself.

Skyrim is an RPG. An RPG with Adventure Game Elements, but an RPG all the same. It may not be as complicated as earlier versions, but at the same time, there is more to do than the earlier versions.

Like what? Nothing comes to my mind except the simplistic professions (cooking, woodcutting, mining), smithing and marriage (which is really just implemented as a gimmick).

I tend to agree as ive always felt the stats where there to respresent what the mechanics could not, now that mechanics are there do we need as many guiding stats to really play out a role. imo the sand box nature and characterisation of skyrim makes it very much a rpg even if it doesnt follow the traditional mold, i see action adventure games more along the lines of games like ledgend of zelda, metriod prime, half life. Where the world is open to your but the story is 100 percent set up and ready for you to follow as the games character. That said i wont be defending mass effect as an rpg, one its not tes ( the issue at hand) and two i didnt enjoy it so wouldnt do the arguement justice.
As i asked in the opening post lets not get bumned down by possible ideas of streamlining/dumbing down thats not going to solve the issue just aggrivate it, we are all obviously passionate about tes lets help each other get the best from it!

Sorry for the finger pointing(was just looking for a lil veteran help you hit the web first lol ) i agree very much with that statement/disclaimer i two post for the same reason with a strong oppinionated out look, but as always ut is ment as that purly a duscussive media to share with others.

Skyrim is very player-skill driven as well, at least in archery, magic, and stealth. In melee combat it's more about how many health potions you have.

let's just hope TES series will not become marriage sims, I'm fine with it being either an RPG or Action-RPG

a little unlikly i feel, it hardly drawn any reasourse from the current build they are essentialy a follower/living house decoration with a spesific avaenue of interest, personaly any open ended rp tools that fits in such a world environment(yes i Knows its a fantasy game but its routed still very much as a reality parrelle to our own)is welcome and i hope its built on, but never at the detriment of core mechanics, most of my characters will never marry but thats not saying it doesnt fit well for others, these games at the end of the day do well to flex to so many whims.
Can anyone sight an example of how theyve used more gimicy mechanics to build a character using the most powerful mechanic in a rp, your own mind?

You can RP Call of Duty if you really wanted to.

People who insist that you can't either lack imagination, or are using that as a smokescreen for their real complaint - that it isn't Morrowind/Daggerfall II.

I made a post how Minecraft was an RPG because many people were getting annoyed that it was getting RPG elements. I don't understand how RPGs have been forced to have stats in order to fall into the classification of RPG. RPG is such a generic classification that could be applied to almost any game, but people seem to hold onto this notion that only games with deep stats are RPGs.

In my humble opinions genres are meaningless, arbitrary classifications that only help to enhance pretentious attitudes.

role-playing game
?

noun
a game in http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master.


In Skyrim’s case, the master could be considered either the player, or Radiant Story, or a combination of the two.

Exactly and the learning curve is why they have changed RPGs like TES into action games now. Too many people have to have their hands held and the game tell them how to play these days. When Morrowind was around for example. Most of the players were DnD types that loved backstory and lore with unique and complex questlines. Now anyone and their 5 year old brother can play TES V. People can obviously see how over easy Skyrim is even looking back on Oblivion. Skyrim made for the masses is just a great enviornment with shallow and simple quests. I like the game, but it seems the only way to keep my interest would be to mod it out now, which I shouldn't have too. BGS should care about their product more to want to make it quality without modding. I played 400+ hours and started to get bored and I have never been bored of a TES game. Sad thing is some people are right about the written storylines. I went back and started playing ME2 and the whole story is written better and more compelling crew members and characters, they are memorable. I haven't played Skyrim for only a couple days and have already forgotten half the characters in it already.

Your opinion.