Thats the point I hear made whenever this is brought up a lot and Ill keep refuting it saying that stats and math crunching are not the core of an RP experience, just leftovers from pen and paper games. For me taking out the emphesis on stats and numbers just immerses me even more into the character and game, instead of the game mechanics acting as a filter. Now you can just... play.

Show me one RPG that doesn't use numbers.

Stats are part of the core of an RPG, so you are incorrect.

the 2 schools of thought: roleplaying game vs rpg. player vs character-driven.

roleplaying with your mind is a very simple activity that skyrim allows one to do. it actually "forces" me to rp or else i'm just running around with no purpose and am easily bored with the shallow gameplay.

rpg/character mechanics apply rules/limitations/structure/depth within the game itself.

for me, the ability to roleplay is a necessity in rpg's, not, a shining beacon of strength. i never felt i had to roleplay in morrowind, oblivion or the fallouts.
in skyrim, because it lacks strong rpg elements/mechanics, i am left wanting more.

edit- i never said it was an easy thing to explain, lol

But if you read the posts made by people like me on this thread youll see that for people like me at least this is exactly the bread and butter of an RPG.
Without all these things you end up calling Mass Effect an RPG, and Im sorry but to me that is a shooter.
The game mechanics need to act as that filter, because that is why it is an RPG and not a Mario game.
What is important are my characters stats and not when I press a button.

Generally this is exactly what makes an RPG an RPG.

I take issue with the notion that "player skill = not RPG"

If player skill can't be involved, why play the game?

In a PnP, isn't your decision making a form of "player skill"? Yes, it is. It is a mental form of it, by making decisions on a course of action to best overcome an obstacle placed in front of you.

I agree that an RPG should have character skill as a factor in outcomes, but to say that player skill can't is quite an invalid argument as far as im concerned.

You might as well not play a game and just read a book or watch a movie in that case.

But a game needs to have player and character interaction, which is a form of player skill.

As I understand it, those who say that an RPG does not depend on player skill are talking about player skill at pushing buttons and manipulating the controller, as opposed to player skill at making decisions. Skyrim allows for both which is why people are calling it an action RPG, since it combines elements of an action game (which requires good button pressing skills) and an rpg (which requires good decision making skills).

I see some great arguments but I disagree that all kids want to shoot things and never get stuck. If those characteristics fit my personality, I wouldn't be in delving myself into complicatedly difficult titles such as Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. I think you threw a few generalizations into your rebuttal. First off, depending on your selected difficulty, it would be fair, in my opinion, to say Skyrim can be a challenging game, with many features, selections, and player optimizational choices to be made. And another thing, rpg is a term that stands for role playing, and does not depend on those elements, instead, it depends on if the game is a ROLL PLAYING GAME. If you are able to take a character roll in any part or aspect of the game, it would be considered an rpg; although there are many other factors that make the term rpg truly what it is understood to be by general audience; those qualities would be the ones you were discussing.

Just a note, in the Windows Games menu, Oblivion and Morrowind say "Role Playing" under genre. Skyrim says "Action/Adventure." Not sure who defines it(I would argue Bethesda) but there it is.

Skyrim leans more towards physical skill than mental skill.

That's interesting. Doesn't the box say "RPG", though?

Via Wikipedia...



Oblivion is also cited as aRPG.

TES may be moving away from pure RPG.

That much was already obvious, I think.

I wouldn't be surprised if TES VII was more Zelda like.

Interesting POV. How do you feel about the Fallout games, since they are near and dear to many TES fans as well?

I'm of the opinion that RPGs aren't dead. In fact, I love the Mass Effect games, and the Dragon Age series (go Bioware). I'm also a huge fan of New Vegas.

Mass Effect 2 is a 3rd Person Shooter with RPG elements.

I think it's a 3rd person RPG with shooter elements.

Just to chip in on neither of you's'(/trollface) side: Every companion quest followed the same pattern and from what I recall, always led to shooting tons of enemies.

you could say that about any RPG really.

Fallout is a Turnbased Tactical game with RPG elements.

Baldur's Gate is a Real Time Tactical game with RPG elements.

New Vegas is an FPS with RPG elements.

Wizardry series are first person turnbased tactile games with RPG elements.

Ultima ae Turnbased Tactical games with RPG Elements.

Dungeons and Dragons are small scale Wargames with RPG Elements.

World of Darkness LARP is Roshambo with RPG elements.

I think it is a 3rd person sim with shooter and RPG elements.

I think it is a 4th person RTS game with first person shooter elements

I'm not sure how a forth person perspective is possible.

In truth a true CRPG is impossible for todays technology, there are always limits that prevent true roleplaying.

That one, at least, is moot.

It really does not matter what it says on the box, theyll put anything on there if it sells
For honest sake they had to make rules on what can be called 'cheese' so left over curds and wey boiled down could be excluded.
What it says on the box, as any consumer knows since at least the early 70's, is the very last thing you go on as theyll say anything

I get that, but why is pushing a button a "no-no" player skill, but mentally assessing a situation, and making decisions -as yourself-, is okay?

I totally disagree that player skill "negates" being an RPG.

Like I said, I understand (and agree with) the importance of character skill vs. player skill, but at some point, *I* am playing a game, and I want what *I* do to matter. Otherwise, like I said, I may as well not even play the game. I may as well just watch someone else play.

That means nothing, my Zune labels Nikki Minaj under "Soul"...