And where did this childish statement come from?? Uncalled for to say the least. Sounds like a remark at the end of a debate when you know you've lost and you just want to spite someone.

It's a funny how people want to execute a woman simply for being paranoid and overbearing - she even jokes about this trait in herself, since her job has been sort of a lifetime spy/spook. It's just one of her habits. She's simply written as a clandestine type of character, and you guys treat it as some big affront.

Now the funny part is how you think you have some claim to what's more righteous - and how the Greybeards and Parth are so benign and looking out for people. When all the while you want to kill old women. Even funnier, you want to "Fus Ro Dah", when the Greybeards would forbid such a petty use of the Voice. If you're some admirer of their way, then represent. But if you want to be like that, then don't act like you're some Greybeard follower at the same time.

By all means, play how you want and all that.. kill everyone for all I care. lol. But for the sake of argument and discussion, how about being a little more consistent?

Bad, killing some one is bad. Why in the hell would you do otherwise? Killing even Alduin is Bad. So why do it?


Except, you hardly know anything as Dovakin. It is the way of the Blades, to do justice with a blade. It isn't about being good or bad, it is about serving a purpose.

Lol I never said I was a follower of their ways. I simply have said that the "blades" do not know what is right and they are wrong for not having anything to do with me (the dragonborn whom their vowed to serve) for not killing parth who now is a gentle dragon teaching peace and meditating. They are bullies basically and I always teach bullies a lesson. In this case I would fus-ro-dah them off the top of the throat of the world laughing the whole time. I could quite honestly care less about the grey beards.

Bullies? They're just following a sort of eye-for-an-eye mentality.

I don't expect everyone to like that either. But that is the main issue, I think. Some people are more idealistic, while some relish in punishment and justice. The former always consider the latter bullyish, or even in some cases, evil. I already see complaints about the Blades being warmongers and genocidal. Pretty soon, we'll start comparing them to Hitler (except, against "dragons"). It's inevitable.

I would not go THAT far lol, but if you follow Hammarabi's code then the world ends up blind. I think he has very well made up for his past crimes, "atoned" for them I should say. Any decent person would see that.

The 8 divines may have mercy on his soul.

I think for the sake of entertainment, I probably follow that code faithfully. What am I going to play if I start thinking like Gandhi? They're just isn't a good gaming mechanic for that. My character might have a clean conscience, and might enjoy meditating, but that's no fun for me.

Besides, after playing Dragon Age, I'm glad I can kill tons of dragons in this game. Dragon Age had only a handful of dragons, even though it was called Dragon Age. I'm not going to blow this opportunity by getting soft now.

Heh I liked dragonage myself but it was way to short and easy. And I have killed enough dragons that I probably have double the amount of dragon souls than I have shouts. I can afford to let the one that single-handedly saved the world by teaching humans to shout live.

You're not exactly just letting one go. Storywise, he's going to try to reach out to other dragons. In a way, others would start becoming off limits, and you're just suppose to hope for the best, and wait for some magical world of peace with dragons. Something I don't care about. I didn't buy the game to vicariously live out some some pacifist viking fantasy. I think it's cooler to revive the whole Akavir mentality, where peace with dragons is stupid.

Ultimately, Paarthurnax is potentially a greater force for good than the Blades are. So... Parthurnax lives. Plus I kind of liked him. A very well done character.

The Greybeards opt out of the Civil War because, justifiably, they think it's stupid and selfish with both sides being [censored]. They DO however host a peace conference when they can. So, they're pretty nice guys.

In the words of Yoda, "Wars do not make one great."

The Greybeards obviously believe this.

Yoda kicks a**.

Yoda's lame though. He's just like a Greybeard.

People assume too much that peace and love are inherently good things all of the time.

I'll represent the "meathead" warmongers and just say those two concepts are very boring.

Let me quote my avatar. It was a helluva better movie than Star Wars.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0593052/: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0593052/: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0593052/: That is good! That is good.

The Blades' purpose is to serve the Dragonborn and offer guidance. I've followed their guidance, doing what they asked of me, until they demand I do something I have good reasons not to do. But instead of heeding my guidance, they basically tell me to get lost. Never mind that they have no real purpose without a Dragonborn (of which I'm the only one that anyone knows about), never mind they could use my help against Thalmor persecution, never mind they could use my help in reforming the Blades, never mind that I have no issue with continuing to kill hostile dragons... no, because I won't kill someone that they have some vendetta against, they're more than willing to do themselves harm and possibly ensure the Blades end once they're dead. A vendetta their ancestors willingly set aside when serving Tiber Septim.

Couldn't of said it better myself.

So that justifys them for the misjudgement of Character (sharing the word of power with Ulfric, when they shouldn't have)?

Thats just makes them sound even more irresponsible. They could have at least called him to restrain him or reprimand him for his actions.


Vendatta is the word used by the GB. Your sentiments clearly lie with the GB. Anything the Blades say are deception, but anything that GB says is the honest truth. Yet they have been protecting this monster for hundreds of years. If the Dragonbonrn came to them few thousand years ago, seeking the death of Pthnx, would their response have been any different? I doubt it very much. They're search for the knowledge of the Dragon Tongue is beyond perverse as they can not even speak or comprehend the language of the dragons.

I think whether you side with Paarthurnax or The Blades ultimately comes down to your thoughts on the purpose of the concept of 'justice'. There are two views of justice:

1) That it is a punishment. In this scheme serving jail time is a punishment, and it's primary goal is simply to provide retribution upon you in a quantity roughly equal to the crimes you have committed. Within this scheme sentencing Paarthurnax to death is entirely reasonable.

2) That it is an atonement. In this scheme the purpose of jail time is to reform the criminal; to turn them into a functional member of society. There is an aspect of punishment, yes, but that punishment has the purpose of making that person 'sorry' for committing their crime. The idea is that the person regrets their actions as a result of the trials inflicted upon them by the justice system. In this scheme sentencing Paarthurnax to death is wrong.

Now, when it comes to Paarthurnax's reformation itself I can't help but compare him to, say, an alcoholic. Or drug addict. All the texts tell you that an addict never stops being an addict. An alcoholic who has been dry for 5 years is still an alcoholic, at any moment a weakness in will could cause them to revert. But, as Paarthurnax says, do you judge them on what their urges are, on what they have done, on what they could do, or do you judge them on their actions? Do you judge a reformed alcoholic differently than a practicing, so to speak, alcoholic? I'd suggest that most would most definitely have a great deal more respect for the reformed alcoholic. As such I am very much loath to judge a reformed dovah as if he was a 'practicing' dovah.

The Blades, on the other hand... well. There's two possible character interpretations.

1) The old line 'such and such has outlived their usefulness' is pretty much THE 'I'm an evil overlord' declaration. Those are not the words of someone bound by any kind of honor. In this character interpretations they're idiots (for being so transparently manipulative) and nasty. No longer bound by duty, they just do what they want to do, and so they ask (tell) you to kill Paarthurnax for no other reason than because they just don't like him.

2) They might be following a 'lawful good' ethos. With the added detail that good doesn't mean nice, and lawful doesn't mean honorable. Not only has Paarthurnax committed crimes against humanity, but he betrayed his general, brother, race and base instincts. If he can do all that then there is no reason he could not betray you at the drop of a hat.

Of course the Blades never meet Paarthurnax at all, so they're operating on rather depleted knowledge. We know that Paarthurnax fought Alduin directly, and face to face, so stop you, the Dragonborn, from being overwhelmed when Alduin took to the wing. He wasn't like Odhaviing, who stood aside to see who would win, he actively took your side (and the side of the humans in the first battle with Alduin) when victory was certainly not assured.

All in all I'm disappointed in Delphine for even asking me, but more disappointed with Bethesda that there's no way of getting closure on this issue if you do not wish to kill Paarthurnax. When the CK comes out the first thing I'll do is add in a persuade, intimidate and, if necessary, a brawl option to the dialogue to advance that quest without having to kill Paarthurnax.

Exactly. They don't do anything about him, even though they're probably aware his duel has sparked something that has caused a lot of dead Nords.

If anyone has seen Kill Bill, there was a character.. Hatori Hanzo. A pacifist blacksmith/swordsman. Once he heard about his former student (Bill) turning bad, he dropped some of his oaths and intervened. He felt responsible for even teaching him. The Greybeards can't even seem to do that.

if you are role-playing as a good character you should let paathurnax live, if you play as an evil one you should side with the blades, if you play to complete the highest number of quests you HAVE to kill paathurnax because else it will go away after you kill alduin.

I know. I just enjoy playing the "soft, pleasant" guy who can and will kill hundreds if you get on his bad side.

Different strokes for different folks.


Hey, I'm not arguing the Greybeards are perfect. I do find it interesting, however, that no one really has any opinion on Ulfric or what he's been using his Thu'um for.


The Greybeards are, IMHO, intelligent and wise but I'm not blind to their flaws either. One of the things I noted was the fact that the Greybeards are all about "Oh how could the Blades have engaged in a genocide against the dragons! Those fiends!" There's a bit of humor in how "Big P" points out his race is naturally evil and he only gets by through meditation. I liked that. The Greybeards only know Big P so they think he's representative of their kind.

Still, I think the Blades plotline could have been developed more. Delphine and her partner really just seem to resent the DB as this guy who they are supposed to follow due to destiny.

It's not like I don't comprehend their philosophy. If Darth Vader survived Return of the Jedi, you damn well bet he'd be executed for all the stuff he did. It's just that you, as the Dragon Born and the previous Emperors, should have the power to pardon him for it (and Tiber Septim DID).

If you're looking into the future of the game , say possible content additions (please god) then you would work this out so you have both sides intact , and maybe over the course of this paarth actually succeeds in turning some dov to the way of the voice.The problem there is they will become a defensive asset.High Hrothgar occupies one of the last pillars of the world , something the Thalmor dearly wish to destroy to bring about their true goals.

Paarthurnax- He doesn't just save mankind.He saves this version of the world from being destroyed to make way for the next.He tauhgt the thu'um to the first men.Dragonrend is the first manmade shout and it's effects are incomprehensible to dragons.But to what goal? That's for you to decide.He expresses remorse for Alduin's death , which is a positive sign that he's got some good in him.Evil is in the eye of the beholder , paarth says his nature is to dominate , not I'm evil.All the dragons that attack you are actually excited to test themselves against you and see what you got.I chose leaving him alive in case he succeeds with the other dragons , but I'm ready to stomp his guts out at the first sign of betrayal.

The greybeards - They aren't pacifists , just attack one. Better yet, just simply get one to whisper in the temple.They can't just go charging off across the land fighting like normal warriors , they'd risk making a mistake and causing a catastrophe.I refer you to the fact they sit upon one of the last pillars of the world. Their founder didn't pick that site on accident.They teach you the concepts of the way and show you to words , they are doing something.Last time they showed a new person the way he promptly left and used it to kill the high king , forgive them for being ..... hesitant.Anything arngier told you turns out to be true-ish about the blades, they start acting domineering rather quickly after you proving your authenticity.After teaching you the concept of the way , they don't throw down with an ultimatum to stop helping you if you don't accept it.I'd say that proves their internal struggle with trying to adhere to the way and help you at the same time , which should be obviously difficult.

The Blades - These people are not the top echelon of blades leadership that managed to survive.They're cogs in the bigger machine going by their leader's last guidances.Delphine is acting retardedly dogmatic to the point you have to assume she was a really good soldier and followed orders to the letter.Esbern really is just an archivist that kept knowledge for them , I see him as having nothing left and he's following in tow with somebody taking the authority role for the blades.As the game stands as of right now , there's no way to just tell almost anyone in the game what you know.They script the reactions and you're left to respond with ...... nothing.These people don't have the knowledge you have nor could they about the recent events.Verdict- the storyline with the blades is seriously flawed and undone or just simply completely overlooked.At the very least you're left clamoring at your screen for the option to just tell her ,"Look paarth helped me , he says he's gonna turn the others to the way , but if he slips up I'm on him like stink on sh!t." But no , you get the huge WTF moment of do it or else.

Alsuin - Not just your average dragon everybody knows that.The reason he's so special is he's an agent of change.He "eats" the old world to usher in the new world , he's decided to turn from this duty which he was created to do and abuse it.Paarth is his brother but can't deny Alduin must be stopped.And not stopped for the reason of being evil , but stopped because he's now doing his "job" at his liesure.The first time Alduin gets banished into the time stream this world would have or was very shortly going to be ended , except Alduin was partying pretty hard and was abusing his power.Paarth probably knows something we could have no way of knowing , one of my theories is Alduin's soul isn't absorbed by you on death it goes somewhere else.I think the agent is being remade.So leaving a possible ally for future dragonborn "might" be an asset.

But after all that storytime , it doesn't really matter , this is all just engrossing stuff to discuss and you play it the way you feel like.This is just my impresions from the first time I did this on a good guy character , and it became convoluted because at the time I was kind of raging about the lack of "good" stuff to do , in fact , trying to roleplay the game "good" you're going to miss quite alot and it was frustrating.After a time you see the shades of grey necessary to do certain things , even if you're truly good.But by this time I approached it from the viewpoint of the future that I seriously hope they bring in the form of DLC's , because the game right now has left me feeling like it's an open-ended trilogy or something.Especially after learning some more lore.So now I have a semi-rebuilt blades that I never go back to , ever , and Paarth BETTER be doing exactly as he said he was gonna do or else.I don't necessarily count on the dov that accept the way as offensive allies , they happen to be sitting on a much bigger liability in this world that's more important than anything else.The blades will continue doing whatever it is Delphine wants to do , and that surely will entail interceding at some point because it will affect them too.But this is all speculation and I'm tired. =P

^{Should a mass murderer go free because people think he's a nice guy? The blades are the prosecutors, the greybeards are the defense attornies, you are the jury. The prosecutors, the blades, are going to go full on with trying to get you to convict the murderer. The defense, greybeards, are going to defend their client. You have to decide whether this supposed repentant murderer is going to stay on the straight and narrow or go on a rampage one day. I'm likely to side with the prosecutors based on history which happens to repeat itself.}

A litte addition to the High King duel being mentioned. It was a duel and by Nord law was an accepted practice.The terms of the duel aren't really talked about , just mstly the results.Shouting is a form of ancient magic , it woulnd't be considered outlandish or cheating unless it went obviously against the terms of the duel.In which case I feel like the witnesses to the duel were kind of undecided about Ulffric , or he wouldn't have left the area alive. You would assume this because the Nords are supposedly all about honor and courage etc.People have said he went about the challenge in a decitful manner by just saying he wanted an audience with the High King , then dropped the duel bomb on him in his court where he couldn't refuse it. hello , he's a Nord , he can't really refuse it anywhere else either , the only possible effect would have been the king not asking for time to prepare in fear of looking bad.Based on Nord custom , the High King was severely unfit even if Ulffric didn't use a shout.I'm sure some of you rather sparingly use shouts as you play , they're not so gamebreaking that you HAVE to use them.

The guards will talk about Ulffric "dhouting him apart" That's called word of mouth and story distortion between retellings probably influenced heavily by strong drink.You see that he just uses a normal shout whicherver side you pick in the civil war , nothing that would rip him apart on it's own.So if there were more details about the terms of the duel , what the High King even attempted to do in defense , it's all just assumption based on repeated blabber by mostly non-present people.And of course his wife is going to say he cheated , a Nord doesn't want to think their awesome loved-one might have been so weak he didn't even get a swing off , so obviously the other guy cheated , no way in hell are you going to admit you married a milk-drinker.