Paarthurnax vs Blades (MQ Spoilers) : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:35 am

^{Should a mass murderer go free because people think he's a nice guy? The blades are the prosecutors, the greybeards are the defense attornies, you are the jury. The prosecutors, the blades, are going to go full on with trying to get you to convict the murderer. The defense, greybeards, are going to defend their client. You have to decide whether this supposed repentant murderer is going to stay on the straight and narrow or go on a rampage one day. I'm likely to side with the prosecutors based on history which happens to repeat itself.}

The Blades are being stupidly idealistic, attempting to follow their code of justice over what benefits us in wartime. I go with sparing him on political and military grounds.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:51 am

At the very least you're left clamoring at your screen for the option to just tell her ,"Look paarth helped me , he says he's gonna turn the others to the way , but if he slips up I'm on him like stink on sh!t." But no , you get the huge WTF moment of do it or else.

Actually she knows quite well that Paarth helped you. She doesn't care, and flat-out tells you they doesn't need his help anymore. http://imperial-library.info/content/atlas-dragons says he should die, and so they want him to die, end of story as far as they're concerned.

Thats just makes them sound even more irresponsible. They could have at least called him to restrain him or reprimand him for his actions.

Restrain him? What are they, jailers? It's not like it's illegal to use thu'um if you're not a Greybeard, and it's not like only Greybeards control knowledge of thu'um (that can, in fact, be a point of oddity in the game; thu'um was used quite a lot among the Nords of Skyrim in the previous Eras, while Skyrim shows it restricted to just the Greybeards and some special individuals).

Vendatta is the word used by the GB. Your sentiments clearly lie with the GB.

My sentiments lie with the Greybeards because they're the most forthcoming with me and are willing to work with me to do what must be done to take care of the dragons' threat. They teach me what they know, and do not demand I follow their way. Despite concerns, they still teach me the Clear Skies shout so I can meet Paarthurnax. After voicing their displeasure about you wanting to learn Dragonrend, they still tell you where to look for the Elder Scroll so you can go back in time to learn it. After voicing their displeasure about getting involved with the civil war, they still use their influence at your request to get both sides to the table for a temporary cease-fire so the dragons can be dealt with.

The Blades, on the otherhand, operate on a need-to-know basis. If they don't think you need to know something, they won't tell you. Delphine gets Farengar to ask you to dive into a dangerous ruin to get a stone tablet (which might not have even existed), and won't tell you what it is or what it's for. She sends you blind into the Thalmor Embassy without any clear goal (besides 'look for any info they have on the dragons'), which almost gets you and her informant killed. She also refuses to believe you when you tell her they know nothing, until you call her on her stupidity and she apologizes. They'll then have you figure out the puzzles to reach Sky Haven Temple, and open it up with your blood, before making themselves at home. Then they say that the Blades need to be rebuilt and tell you to bring potential recruits. They'll sit there and accept Paarthurnax's help, until they deem his usefulness to be over then promptly demand you kill him.

Exactly. They don't do anything about him, even though they're probably aware his duel has sparked something that has caused a lot of dead Nords.

If anyone has seen Kill Bill, there was a character.. Hatori Hanzo. A pacifist blacksmith/swordsman. Once he heard about his former student (Bill) turning bad, he dropped some of his oaths and intervened. He felt responsible for even teaching him. The Greybeards can't even seem to do that.

Hatori Hanzo's oath was against making swords. Even when he breaks that oath, he doesn't do anything about Bill himself, he lets The Bride do it. He also didn't do anything on his own, and only did so after she pushed the issue.

Last I knew, Elisif didn't show herself to be worthy and plead for the Greybeards to teach her so she could exact justice/vengeance on her husband's murderer (but even still, they do teach you despite you not following the Way of the Voice, and as mentioned before, the Greybeards aren't the only way people can learn thu'um), so Kill Bill isn't exactly a good comparison.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:46 pm

The Blades are being stupidly idealistic, attempting to follow their code of justice over what benefits us in wartime. I go with sparing him on political and military grounds.

Wartime, you are at war with dragons. Being at war with dragons and having a confessed murderer tell you that he has repented doesn't bide too well for him. There is nothing wrong with following a code of justice, an honor code or a code of ethics and who is to say that wiping out all dragons isn't going to benefit the people more than allowing a supposedly repentant dragon to go free.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:53 am

What if you found out that Esbern was a scociopathic murderer that murdered woman, men, and children when he was younger that decided to change his ways and join the Blades and without his help, you would have gotten nowhere in the Main Quest? The Jarl of Whiterun asks you to kill him or he won't have anything to do with you and the Blades.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:06 am

If you are bad, you must stay bad forever, because there is no mercy.

Put that way the blades are the anti-thesis of Stendarr's paladins (Vigilants notwithstanding they seem to have fallen from the path)

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:31 pm

What if you found out that Esbern was a scociopathic murderer that murdered woman, men, and children when he was younger that decided to change his ways and join the Blades? The Jarl of Whiterun asks you to kill him or he won't have anything to do with you and the Blades.

I'd kill him. The sentence would be carried out.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:46 am

2 reasons why I let Paarthurnax alive.
1) He help the ancient Nords and me (and so all of Tamriel) to fight Alduin. And he let me meditate "YOL". (Kill it with fire xD)
2) The Blades acting like children. The world is about to be destroid by Alduin and these two clown are like "we won't talk to / help you until you kill him, because hundrets of years ago he was bad and helping to defent the world two times does not count."

Also in terms of benefits the Blades don't offer much.
Free beds. (yeah like i need some more beside my 5 houses and stuff)
The "not working" Potion (i use heavy armor so .... woho big help if i take 10 HP less dmg from a bite.)

PS: You can get the potion before you read the elders sroll on top of the mountain.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:34 am

Don't kill him. They are trying to get revenge for something happened thousands of years ago. In the meantime, buddy Paar has HELPED mankind. In my first playthrough, I killed him, and didn't notice any help from the blades...... The blades have become a thin shadow of what they were in oblivion. (and I am a BIG blades fan.......)

^This

Here's something else.. What good have the greybeards done? They're passive, which is ok, but ineffectual. Here's the other thing, the only guy you meet who's followed their school is Ulfric. Who uses shouts in duels. He's kind of a punk for that, like him or not.

What good is the Way of the Voice if it just leads to a former dragon tyrant who never answered for his crimes, a bunch of geezers who ignore the problems of the world, and an aspiring king who uses his shouts just to be provactive?

At least with the Blades, they give you cool armor, a cool sword, and dragon hunting quests. And dragon hunting is what you're supposed to be doing. Not meditating with them. Some of you want to punish Delphine, an old woman, for rightly thinking justice must be served.. but forgive something that brought terror to an entire planet. Great.

As for what have the greybeards done, how bout taught you 2 full shouts and shown you were the word to another shout was, help with the civil war by have a parley with two groups of people who were being just as childish as people say the blades are being, which at the same time helped to defeat Alduin. You could say without their actions Alduin wouldn't have been defeated. That being said I wish I could Fus Do Rah the greybeards right off High Hrothgar and laugh at them as they fall all they way down.

If you're thinking she treats you like a lapdog, you're just being insecure. She has a mission. She doesn't deviate from it. Contrary to popular belief, her mission isn't kissing your ass. It's protecting your ass, and killing dragons. It's your fault if you want to "meditate" with dragons and be all "he's so nice. I forgive him", even though it's not your right to forgive. You're not one of his victims.

I have to disagree with the last part of this. No, we weren't one of his victims. His victims died thousands of years ago. Someone might say that the decendents of those victims still have the right to justice. I say you might well be a decendent of one of those victims.
When you say it's not your right to forgive I have to respectfully disagree with that as well. You are dragonborn. You have the blood of a dragon running through your veins, the blood of a ruler running through your veins since the dragonborn are who is meant to rule the empire, (which does kind of make me curious why I'm not emperor after I killed the emperor, DB quest,) and as a ruler it IS your right to forgive or to punish.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:01 am

I killed him my first playthru, and felt guilty about it. He has been doing his penance for thousands of years. The blades are a shadow of their former glory, and only tradition demands his death. No room for what Paarth has done for Tamriel in the intervening millenia.... Screw 'em. I am not going to kill him again.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:51 am

Paarthurnax did wrong things in the past, but he saw the evil in it and stopped, then he went to help humanity TWICE knowing that it could bring an end to it's own race/family/friends (and it did happen), I don't know about you guys but that's pretty redeeming into my eyes.

On the other side, you have 2 members of a former group called Blades, a group that obeyed and answered only to the Dragonborn(s?), who tells you now what to do and what not, are you going to carry their orders even when they should OBEY you? No effin way.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:26 am

The more i learned about what really happened the more it justifies Parthunax's life comming to an end. Parthunax killed sooooo many people....He disrespects the dead if he still lives. He dies with honor because of the help he gives the dragon born.

The Grey Beards are useless little cowards who sit up on a mountain all day and worship a known mass murder who decided to turn good. Men of peace that worship a mass murder.

The Blades are trying trying to help.. Even tho they are useless they have NO right to tell the Dragon Born what to do. But they are right.

And for some reason i have this feeling that the only reason Parthunax played turn coat on alduin is because he knew one day the Dragon Born would kill him. Fear of death does not sugar coat or cover up millions of deaths. Maybe this was his long lasting plan to take Alduins place. Either way it ends. After a while i understood why Parthunax had to die...

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:23 am

reasons why i dont support the blades

1. Ur toon is the dragonborn, the blades serve and protect the dragonborn..the dragonborn dosent join up with the blades, the grp was formed to protect and serve the dragonborn
2. Who are the blades to tell the dragonborn what to do? that u dotn kill a certain dragon that they wont join u? Now keep in mind that this same dragon is also the one that tiber septim and pretty much EVERY emporer on down told the blades NOT to kill Paar.
3. If the blades are gonna get all pissed off at me for not killing ONE dragon when i kill Alduin and countless other blood and elder dragons they pretty much disown ya if u dotn kill Paar..............if they are gonna be the DragonHunters and not the bodyguards who serve and protect the dragonborn.........show me ur kills. if u aint even killing dragons and dont give me that crap she was there when Alduin rezed that dragon because all she did was talked and then got blasted to the face and ran and hide behind the rocks crouching and wimpering until "I" killed the dragon and then she was all "we" stopped it and everything....noooo god nooo.

I would gladly let the real Blades follow and serve and advice me in the game, but alas i cannot find them, i only find this elder couple who are so demented they actually believe they are the blades.....silly old people....

the mask----Paarthunax and the Greybeards were alive and well and pretty much adviced Tiber Septim and instead of tellign tiber to head south out of Skyrim, he could have easiely told him to go kill Alduin and pretty much all the emporers after Tiber held at least soem respect or truce with Paar as in they would forbade the Blades to go after him. So if he was just waiting for a dragonborn to kill his bro, Tiber would have surely been more than xqualified to do the job. Ur also forgetting that killing his bro means that no dragosn can be raised formt he dead anymore so even the cowardly blade pretenders in this game could kill him if he got lucky and their wouldnt be any coming back for him....seems like a pretty weak plan there...

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:28 am

Wartime, you are at war with dragons. Being at war with dragons and having a confessed murderer tell you that he has repented doesn't bide too well for him. There is nothing wrong with following a code of justice, an honor code or a code of ethics and who is to say that wiping out all dragons isn't going to benefit the people more than allowing a supposedly repentant dragon to go free.

Yes, in which case it's simply the case of whether or not the PC believes it and/or the Blades code of ethics. Which is what this thread is all about. I, however, go with the past few centuries of service P has shown.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:42 am

it may be that the Dragonborn might not have known how to fight till the game itself, so that may play into siding with the blades, especially if you put that into your own Backstory.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:22 pm

the mask----Paarthunax and the Greybeards were alive and well and pretty much adviced Tiber Septim and instead of tellign tiber to head south out of Skyrim, he could have easiely told him to go kill Alduin and pretty much all the emporers after Tiber held at least soem respect or truce with Paar as in they would forbade the Blades to go after him. So if he was just waiting for a dragonborn to kill his bro, Tiber would have surely been more than xqualified to do the job. Ur also forgetting that killing his bro means that no dragosn can be raised formt he dead anymore so even the cowardly blade pretenders in this game could kill him if he got lucky and their wouldnt be any coming back for him....seems like a pretty weak plan there...

Cowardly blade pretenders..? Everyones a coward in my book, Parthunax, Blades and GreyBeards....

As of right now my Barbarian Nord has 0 murders... Whats parthunax's count?

Like i said. He needs to die. As a matter of fact my Barbarian is on personal quest to give a 'good' cleansing to Skyrim. I respect what Parthunax did to help. But like i said he desrespects the dead if he still lives. ( My barbs own set of personal rule)

If parthunax wasn't a Dragon i think alot of people would be singing a different song about killing him.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:48 am

As of right now my Barbarian Nord has 0 murders... Whats parthnax's count?

Wow, I have like 600 dead Bandits and Dark Wizards.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:31 pm

As of right now my Barbarian Nord has 0 murders... Whats parthunax's count?

Well, Paarthurnax helped humanity to prosper by teaching them how to use Thu'um against Alduin. How many people have you helped to prosper?

By the way, I talked about how the "Blades" don't actually have ANY right to force you to kill Paarthurnax http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1328139-what-was-the-blades-oath/

Delphine and Esbern [s]ask[/b] force you to kill Paarthurnax not because they descended from Dragonslayers, but just because Paarthurnax is a dragon

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:04 am

Tiber Septim himself went to High Hrothgar, and it's been said that he made a pact with the dragons who remained at the dawn of the Third Era - Paarthurnax most certainly existed at that time, and Tiber may well have been aware. They may have even met. We don't really know.

But did the Blades of the early Third Era issue petulant ultimatums to Tiber? Doesn't appear to be the case.

Delphine and Esbern can go get stuffed. My Dovahkiin made their own pact with Paarthurnax. He will try to reign in his younger brethren, and those that refuse, get slain and absorbed.

Exactly this. This is why I have a problem with the Blades- Delphine and Esbern's attitude. *I* am the Dragonborn. It is not their place to make ultimatums to ME. It is their place to advise, help, and protect me. Nothing more. It's not about whether Paarthurnax deserves to die for his crimes. It's about that silly ultimatum, period.

If they don't change their tune by the time I become Emperor (yes, I have lofty goals for my Dovakhiin), I'll have their little organization disbanded, and have them both exiled from the Empire. Then, I'll re-create The Blades with a new set of Tenets: starting with "The Dragonborn is always RIGHT!"

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:51 pm

Then, I'll re-create The Blades with a new set of Tenets: starting with "The Dragonborn is always RIGHT!"

Don't forget the second tenet: if the Dragonborn is wrong, see tenet number 1

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:27 am

Cowardly blade pretenders..? Everyones a coward in my book, Parthunax, Blades and GreyBeards....

As of right now my Barbarian Nord has 0 murders... Whats parthunax's count?

Like i said. He needs to die. As a matter of fact my Barbarian is on personal quest to give a 'good' cleansing to Skyrim. I respect what Parthunax did to help. But like i said he desrespects the dead if he still lives. ( My barbs own set of personal rule)

If parthunax wasn't a Dragon i think alot of people would be singing a different song about killing him.

i can respect doign it from a RP point of view, i wont discredit that whatsoever.
as far as how many "murders" paar boy did back in the day, like someone stated before it was during the "dragon war"...mankind killing and being killed by dragons during that period...if we are gonna call into account that Paar needs to pay redribution for all the humans he killed before he SAVED MANKIND....then why aint we all gunho about bring the last 2 "blades" members to justice for the injustice they inflicted on the dragons, because if my lore is right but the dragosn were the guardians over humans, rulers per se, and the whole war started becasue the humans were constantly rebelling over the rulers and keep getting smacked down until Paar took pity and gave them a fighting chance to betray thier guardians..so in that sence the dragosn at first werent just mindlessly killing humans, they were only punishing them for disobeying or rebelling...which i might add our toons themselves have performed the same actions of punishing people rebelling or disobeying or betraying...

again devil's advocate there, if and only if bethesda could have actually instated REAL blade memebers instead of the senile old coupel who think they are, the REAL blades woulda gave a much better reason and hell if even i still disagreed with them, the REAL blades woulda still followed and served and protected me ANYWAYS as well as advice me. Thats my reason for not supporting these pretenders, as far as Paar whatever his reasons for betraying hsi bro and sitting up on that mountains teaching the thuum to humans and protecting that tower...well if he did have evil intentions, he was pretty damn stupid because now anyoen with soem courage, skill, and a whole lotta luck can kill any dragon even ol' Paar and they will stay dead. so im not much worried over him.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:07 am

The Blades have lost their way and are blinded more by vengeance then reason. Delphine seems care more about using the Dragonborne as a means to start The Blades again. Your just a puppet to her, not only does she treat you like crap but she does not trust you. She knows your the Dragonborn, she knows the Greybeards summoned you, she knows you were sent after the horn, yet she still asks for poof...wtf. And for some "magical" reason she managed to obtain the horn, which does not make sense.

Say she starts after the horn the moment the graybeards summon you. Its not magical its having a day or two head start.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:37 pm

Say she starts after the horn the moment the graybeards summon you. Its not magical its having a day or two head start.

The traps. They're all still there. The magical capability of anyone but PC to get to the last room without having to solve any puzzle, the one thing that have existed ever since the dawn of gaming

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Say she starts after the horn the moment the graybeards summon you. Its not magical its having a day or two head start.

i think he might be talking about the probelm i had with the whole "sprinting shout" to actually get to the end....like when did she learn that because the "trap" was set up to where no one but someone who had the sprint could pass. i think thats what he meant by "magical' reason.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:38 am

Well, Paarthurnax helped humanity to prosper by teaching them how to use Thu'um against Alduin. How many people have you helped to prosper?

By the way, I talked about how the "Blades" don't actually have ANY right to force you to kill Paarthurnax http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1328139-what-was-the-blades-oath/

Delphine and Esbern [s]ask[/b] force you to kill Paarthurnax not because they descended from Dragonslayers, but just because Paarthurnax is a dragon

Meh, II didn't kill Parthunax because the Blades told me too. I did it because it was time for him to honor the dead. They ask you to kill Parthurnax because he was Adluins right hand at one time not just because he was a Dragon.

As far as helping people prosper. Thats pretty much all i do with my Barb. Help people.

Also i pretty much cut off my ties with the Blades too even tho im on good terms with them for killing Parth.

Parth dies with honor... Something that should be respected.

Like i said, i think Parth played turned coat because he new this day would come. Like a second in line prince waiting to take the thrown after the the fall of the 1st hier.

Death Comes for all... At least he died with honor before getting another chance to destroy everything. He even warns you of this.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:27 pm

i think everyone here can all agreee to this...

the senile old couple who believe they are the Blades are pretty much one of the biggests disappointments of this game as far as npc/lore/etc wise.
love this game having a blast with all the "flaws' in it, so not talkign about any of that just how the Blades were protrade in this game was one of the biggest if only disappointment i had.