Yup, I get it, and agree for the mostpart of what you're saying. IMO. fewer options lead to fewer roplaying options, fewer skills mean all the classes tend to run together in order to level up...

Yeah, some of us don't like the idea of a blank canvas start. In real life, are all babies exactly the same? NO, of course not! It's called genetics, and it means from the very start people will have different strengths and weaknesses. THIS is what I would prefer, some sort of uniqueness between characters right from the start besides simple cosmetics, and F: NV did this excellently with the perk system. Skyrim's "perk" system does not flesh out your character in the slightest. Some of us don't want "20% more damage with one handed weapons" to define our characters.

^^^

Representation of genetics = racial powers, abilities, and bonuses.

Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

So, nobodys asking to start out as a master of a skill, just to have some ability to select skills that they are slightly better or worse at in the beginning
It gives us a better ability to define who our character was so its not meaningless

edit: and that you got level 2 every time in the starter dungeon means as little as that I never got past level 1 in the starter dungeon, it should have no effect on our starting stats

So... where exactly do Orcs' genetics of simply being larger/stronger get represented? Do they start with more health? Do they naturally do more damage? Or are you basing it off of their one-a-day, which is dumb.

Anyone who just grinds by letting mudcrabs hitting them is doing it wrong.

And also - who cares if they do?

I would love to see the return of classes in some form.

In character creation you choose a profession consisting of several skills which can be altered until a certain threshold is reached like becoming an adept at some of these skills you have chosen. From that point onward you will create your class making those skills your primary and dividing the others into secondary and tertiary skills.

Saying "they are doing it wrong" then asking "who cares" is quite contradictory.

So... where exactly do Orcs' genetics of simply being larger/stronger get represented? Do they start with more health? Do they naturally do more damage? Or are you basing it off of their one-a-day, which is dumb.

^^^

Why is it "dumb"? Its q difference between races.

Also a bonus to weapon skills, which allows for quicker access to damage perks, thus giving you early differentiation in characters.

First, I'd appreciate it if you would actually use the quote system on these forums.

Second, that is a terribly weak argument. Yes, racial powers, abilities, and 'bonuses' do represent characters, but only in a very miniscule way. And this adds no uniqueness whatsoever because it applies to everyone of the same race.

Should all Imperials be the same? No, they definitely shouldn't. Are you saying that in real life all caucasian people are the same, and all hispanic people are the same? Because they're not. Even from the start, right when they are born.

Okay, I'm still genuinely confused by the sentiment that classes have been removed in Skyrim.

Could someone explain this to me?

Its not contradictory.

I don't care how someone else plays even if I wouldn't touch that playstyle with a 10 foot pole.

Anything but the return of classes (god how I hate class-based RPGs).

A selection of optional traits would certainly have helped define your character and customize him/her. Bookworms would be better mages (+ magic skills) but have no strenght to use bigger weapons and have a frailer Constitution (-Two-Handed, HP and Stam). Lonely wanderers would be better at hunting and going about silently (+ archery and sneaking) but socially inept and untrained in heavy armor (- Speech and Heavy Armor), ect. Those are but examples, some traits can be more creative (one of my favourite was Early Bird, + Special during the day and - during the night, it didn't break the game but gave you a small bonus or malus, depending, and in a pinch encouraged you to sleep like a normal person). But of course, we can't have the PC of an Elder Scrolls game be an actual person, would we? They need to be a complete blank slate, a projection so that the player can have it's precious ''immersion''.

Once-a-day power is not used very often, making the proposed racial difference very minute.

TheMech: the quote feature on these forums doesn't work on my smartphone, and at the moment I have no access to a computer.

And your real life comparison to Caucasians is invalid. A game can only do so much.

Everyone of the same race has the same racial bonuses as each other in past games as well. In Morrowind, all Bosmer have Archery bonuses, all Bretons have Conjuration bonuses, and all Khaniit have Sneak bonuses.

Tagging skills manually doesn't change that. And tagging a skill during character creation or halfway thru the tutorial makes no difference.

So you want everyone to be proficient at everything at every moment? A life time warrior being able to raise destruction as efficiently as a life time mage? Perhaps I am being a bit to rash with this conclusion.

Let me rephrase: What do you hate about a class based system?

Compared to the physical character creation, Skyrim wins over Fallout 3 and NV any day. With the sliders for nose, face, etc. I do wish there were much more hair styles, especially shorter ones. They all seem to be long and mid-length do's. That aspect bummed me out a bit.

But I do miss the astral signs that one could pick, even the abilities that detract from a character's skill as well as heighten or buff.

About quoting: understandable.

We've really been using all this genetics stuff as an anology. To better rephrase what I'm trying to say, having increased character customization (similar to the system used in Fallout with tag skills and starting perks) allows for a much better backstory and history to be developed for a character.

As I mentioned earlier, any character at the start of the game is at least 25 years old or so. You'd have though by then a person would have developed certain skills, certain abilities, certain disabilites, etc. Uniqueness. This, however, is not present in Skyrim. Even though my character has lived for 25 years or probably even longer, he/she will always start with the same skill levels (besides miniscule racial bonuses) at the start of the game no matter what their life was like prior to being captured by the Imperials.

Thats the thing :

If you chose to use Destruction as a Warrior, you have begun to create a different class. That is not to say that the Warrior shouldn't at least have the option to use it, and indeed he will be much less effective at it than a Mage who spends perks in the skill.

These 'class' and 'character' skill arguments only attempt to justify the removal of legitimate options for a character.

Examples :

Prison is burning down, a Warrior shouldn't be able to pick the lock?

A horde of Draugr rest in a pool of oil, the Warrior shouldn't be able to cast a simple flame spell?

There are most certainly classes in Skyrim, there are no TITLES associated with them. Every single perk you spend, every skill/spell you use culminates in the development of a 'class' or more appropriately : archetype or sub-archetype.

Options, they are a good thing.

While a System of Perks and Flaws is interesting, it tends to just lead to minmaxing.

I mean would it in any way be a big deal if my robe wearing mage can't wear platemail?

Then why do you make the claim of them "doing it wrong?"

I would love to have a trait system parallel to the current perk system, for all the reasons listed above. It would add depth to each character without subtracting from the overall experience and likely go a long way towards helping us foster more of an attachment to our characters, which I do seem to lack despite skyrim being a great game all in all

I agree being able to perform basic magic to set things aflame or to pick a rusty old lock regardless of the skills you have chosen. But when it comes to altering your characters build mid game by simply choosing another guardian stone goes to far for my tastes. Classes told me who I was before I was released from prison and where my talents are at. It was not the name, it was the boost in character development and the value of role-play it added. I don't see a class system preventing a warrior wielding a flame spell to set a oil pool ablaze

"Min/Maxing" already occurs. It is called choosing the optimal skills that synergize the best. This isn't remotely difficult to do. "Gee that skill gives me double the damage I do" - click. You do not need to spreadsheet or run numbers on this stuff. The way Daggerfall worked when you created a Custom Class, if you wanted to be really powerful, you had to also have major flaws. If you wanted to be Immune to Fire, you would need to say take double damage from Frost. The only problem with Daggerfall's system was that it was obvious which "disadvantages" to assign yourself.

In Skyrim, you have no downsides you are just limited in how many things you can make "uber" due to limited Perk points. You cannot max everything, but can quite easily max everything that matters.

Sorry, double post.