I think Titus did want to get killed, but I dont think he ordered it himself.

Actually not everyone. Myself and another poster suspects that an independent Skyrim and Empire waging war on the Thalmor on multiple fronts would be far better than Empire wasting it's resources putting down insurrections of an unruly populace.

Killing Ulfric just makes him a matyr. More men will rise their swords as kinship is always stronger than loyalty to a distant emperor. Especially an emperor who has betrayed his subjects in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN5BGueTNUc

Agreed. Long Live Skyrim! Long Live Talos! Long Live Stormcloaks!

I LOL'd Great video!

I think Tully-Boy and Storm Drain are still (Expletive Deleted) that should both bow to the DragonBorn, I mean really, where were they in the defeat of the World eater? You'd think that for all his blustering for the "True Nords of Skyrim," he could've at least lent his blade for the demise of the World Eater?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqJAtENMf3w&feature=related

Had me on the floor in 1.6 seconds! BTW, when it comes right down to it, the only side that I'm on is the one BEHIND In front of the PC screen, the most important one, in my opinion!

Types of people that participate in this thread:
1) The cynic that points out how ridiculous it is. (Me)
2) The dude who didn't know how to use the search function to find the 2,365,987,412 other threads on the same topic and decided to start a new one.
3) The people who don't offer their opinion as such, but state it like it is indisputable fact.
4) The rare gamer who is just passing through and offers innocent commentary
5) Related to 2 and 3 sometimes-the guy who can't spell to save his life but still takes offense at someone disagreeing about it with him so he throws a tantrum maligning the person who disagreed with him, their family, and possibly their pets. (This one obviously annoys me the most).
6) The weary forum regular who just sees the topic on the forum's main page and just shakes their head and says, "Really?"
7) The smarmy pedant that has to prove someone wrong with excruciatingly specific lore details to back up their position
Please let me know if I missed anyone.

Welcome to the internet.

You forgot number 8

8) the smug people who think they have the right to insult and judge other people. (you)

Yes I do realize I am doing the same thing back to you.

8) 9) The guy who spends way too much time on these forums, and has to drag himself away to play the game....(Me)

i am gonna try a Nord Barbarian who is going to join the Stormcloaks and am wondering if there is any sense of Heroism in it and what mindset i should go into the chain with.

for the Empire my mindset was a basic soldier who wanted to serve the empire

There is another even more indisputable fact:
The last time another province of the Empire needed help, the Empire abandonded them... and they completely [censored] the Thalmor without the Empire slowing them down.
Skyrim is good enough for taxes, but not good enough to protect, most likely.
So all the Thalmor needs to do is attack Skyrim, and the empire will sign a new concordant, the Golden Diamond-embroidered Platinum lined Concordant:
We the empire give Skyrim to the Thalmor, and please take all our women too, just don't hurt us!

Racist against Khajiit who WORSHIP the Thalmor, High Elves who are the faction that started all the trouble AND the racist Dark Elves (play Morrowind) > Killing people who disagree with you

Besides, the stormcloaks want a democratically elected king; They want a king elected in the Moot.
The empire wants a puppet.

The Thalmor didn't start the war, the Empire started the war when they signed the peace treaty stating: "We, the empire, will give the Thalmor the right to prosecute all the jews Talos worshippers in the world."
Then the empired pissed off the dragonborn by killing innocent people not even suspected of being Stormcloaks with the second in command in the Empire's army in skyrim.
Imagine how many innocents the Empire executes when the high-ranking officers are not there!

How many innocent people did the stormcloaks kill during the campaign?
What racist remarks did ULFRIC himself come with during the campaign?

How did the empire get support?
With chests of gold.

Which means that many of the cities of skyrim supporting the Empire can be bribed.
Those who support Ulfric are honor-bound, not bribed.

The empire DOES support the Talos ban. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Talos_Mistake)
Worshipping Talos HAS an effect in the game, thus he is as much of a real god as the eight divines, and the Empire is wrong in their support of the ban.
Besides, worshipping Talos is the only way the man will be remembered more than 300 years.

Justice, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom from unrightful prosecution and abuse of power upon the people of skyrim (people caught near stormcloaks are executed even when they are confirmed not to be stormcloaks), freedom from alliances with the Thalmor... are some of the aspects of supporting.

Nord cultural supremacy is the flip side of the coin.

i love these posts. about 10% of the time, factual lore is touched on or stated properly and you can tell who actually invests the time to read, listen to complete dialogues in game, and or narratives, including the deeper responses less triggered without player effort.

the other 90% is more akin to a potluck of he said, she said, wiki said, this guy on the corner said. bad or incorrect reading. or simple plain "accidental" disinformation. it can end up being a fun read.

here's what i know;

as an RP'er, there are only 3 races I can see finding reason/excuse to side with an ass that wants to chop my head off ... for no apparent reason, other than to keep my mouth shut over the incident.

1. imperial (friends in high places or cash)
2. high elf (friends, subterfuge, thalmor)
3. wood elf (friends, wrong place wrong time, thalmor)

and these three are "iffy", as should there have been no dragon, my head woulda been in that basket. but as there was, i could escape with the "list" holder, my witness to allow for my pardon (using examples litsted). I want to keep him close. mistakes happen right? allthough if I was RP'ing altmer, Tullius would be accused of Talos worship by the end of the week. He would be on the future list, i promise.

All the other races would simply be pissed, or running for thier lives given the opportunity to flee. And some races are impossible for me to see as legion. ie.. red g's or argonian. It just makes sense to follow a fellow prisoner who shares keeping his head, in common AND willing to cut you free. If i'm a prisoner, why in the hell would an imperial soldier want to help me to safety? "oh, i'm not on the list, chop his head off, but follow me so you dont get cooked by the mean ol dragon". mmmk. (embarrasingly enough, my first couple starts, I didn't even know there was a stormcloak side start, as many others have missed. but thats a different issue right?)

more important for me, was actually waiting to decide after exploring all the cities, towns, npc dialogues.. getting a deeper sense of who's fight meant what to which PC i would RP. There is no rush to join anyone, or anything. at all. ever. one things for certain though.. tullius, the headsman, the priest and anybody else at the head chopping party, (including hadvar, after he cleared my name), would die, somehow/someway.

ulfric might act like a jerk, and it's easy to find alot uncomfortable about him.. but the same could be said about alot of npc's .. both sides, all sides. even little ol ladies that "saw a dragon".if you dig deep enough.

personaly, me thinks some race wants to get thier daedra back. but thats just me. and i have no problem putting an arrow in thier ....

cheers.
d

ps. spelling, punctuation.. yeah yeah, my favorite drinking buddy, lets get some mead.

If we're going to throw blame around, then it's only fair to look at a bigger picture right? In fact, let's keep a tally:

The Redguards backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI? Very unlikely.

The Empire lost Hammerfell by failing to stand with it against the Thalmor in the Great War. Instead the Imperials decided to save their own craven hides, abandoned Hammerfell and promptly shot itself in the foot. In one stroke, the Empire most likely alienated the Redguards for any sort of alliance in the future. Who would trust a central authority that [censored]s for the Dominion?
Independent provinces: 1, Empire: 0

The Argonians backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI? Highly unlikely.

The Empire lost the respect and credibility of the Argonians and Khajiit, when its Imperial leaders failed to take proactive measures in abolishing slavery in Morrowind. Apparently the flow of goods and produce from esteemed Morrowind estates like the House of Dres and Haalu were far too profitable. So much for looking out for the welfare of all your empire's denizens…..
Independent provinces: 2, Empire: 0

Shortly after the Oblivion crisis, the empire lost the Black Marsh when enslaved Argonians rose up against their Dunmer masters in a bloody revolt. The Argonians freed themselves--with exactly 0% support from the Empire. The Empire lost all credibility as a central authority as it haplessly watched as the Argonians proceeded to invade, sack and purge southern Morrowind of Dunmer presence.
Independent provinces: 3, Empire: 0

The Dunmer backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI? Highly unlikely.

The Empire lost virtually all credibility in Dunmer eyes as the central authority in Tamriel. Particuarly when it proved it was incapable of protecting the Dunmer from vengeful Argonians invading southern Vvardenfell. More specifically, the Empire lost Morrowind when it failed restore any semblance of order within that province---a situation which continues to date.
Independent provinces: 4, Empire: 0

The Refugee Dunmer backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI? Extremely unlikely.

Over the next century and a half, the Empire continued to lose what remaining allegiance the surviving Dunmer may have had toward Cyrodil. Especially for those refugees who fled to the island of Solstheim. It's highly unlikely these Dunmer receive any help from the Empire in their struggle for survival. Or those Dunmer who sought---and were granted---refuge in large numbers at cities like Windhelm in Skyrim. Particularly Dunmer who lost families in shipwrecks like The Pride of the Tel Vos (one of the more tragic side quests in Riften) This quest gives you a glimpse of how frantic the Dunmer's evacuation was from Vvardenfell.
Independent provinces: 5, Empire: 0

In fact, the Empire has just about lost all respect as the central authority in Tamriel. For it has now become clear to the other provinces that Cyrodil was--and still is---too preoccupied with its own survival battling the Thalmor. More specifically, Hammerfell and The Black Marsh are living proof the provinces DON'T NEED THE EMPIRE TO SUCESSFULLY FEND FOR THEMSELVES. THIS WOULD ALSO IMPLY THAT THEY DON'T NEED THE EMPIRE AT ALL. Skyrim would make 3/3 if TES VI reveals that Skyrim won the civil war btw.

The Valenwood and Elyswer backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI? Exact impossibility.

The Valenwood and Elyswer succession from the Empire, followed by their absorption by the Thalmor, are clear proof the Empire's central authority is the butt of an ongoing joke in Tamriel. Obvious incompetence which remaining provinces like Skyrim have clearly taken note. Obvious failure in governance which the Imperials have yet to get through their extremely thick skulls. Instead of supporting their fellow Redguard and Nord bretheren in their greatest time of need, the Imperials alienated the two strongest allies it would've had in facing the Thalmor.
Independent provinces: 6, Empire: 0

Skyrim backing an Imperial led Empire against the Thalmor in TES VI?
TBD in TES VI.

Odds of any coalition of mankind beating the Thalmor Dominion in TES VI? Increasingly slim.

Through further short-sighted governance, the Imperials now insist on waging a lose-lose civil war with their Nord brethren. Wasted energy that could've been proactively directed at strengthening ties with their half Altmer, half human Breton cousins; thereby ensuring High Rock's allegiance to the Empire. Through apathy and negligent governance, the Imperials alienated the Redguard, Bosmer, Argonians and Khajiits. And by agreeing to officially outlaw Talos worship to save their selfish hides, the Imperials may have unwittingly dealt the Empire itself--and mankind's sole potential opportunity for immortality---a death blow….

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