Whether or not a country, or group of people( such as the Nords in this case) are backwoods, savage, racist, stupid or whatever...you either believe they have a right to rule themselves, or you don't.

I think that's really the question at the heart of it, do you believe they have the right to self rule or not?

Empires throughout history have justified their rule by claiming their subjects were savages, they may even have been correct about that part!

Think of all the slavery apologetics you see that say things like "but the Africans had slaves too".

Either you believe in fundamental human liberty or you don't, saying a certain group of people has a certain characteristic shouldn't effect that decision. Anyway would forcing someone's culture to be part of an empire get rid of their racism? If not, then why on earth would this be a justification for siding with the empire?

At least the people who say the Empire has a better chance against the dominion have some logic behind the decision.

Yes.

Do you make an exception for the Forsworn ?

The game doesn't allow me to form an opinon on them, because all they do is kill..no other interaction.

Also, their whole thing is killing and driving out everyone else, the Stormcloaks might be xenophobic, but they are not going around committing random murder or trying to forcibly remove everyone but themselves from the entire land..though I think one of the decisions the game asks you to think about is whether or not this might happen down the line if you support them.

Look theres no hero's.....Ulfric is not a hero....Tullias is not a hero....They both have positive and negative traits. It really depends on your ideology, Im personally Empire, But I dont hate stormcloaks, I respect there decision to support Ulfric. I think we should stop insulting each other.

If that's racist, then every war except civil wars is racist.

The R word is pretty much a meaningless term, no need to make it even more so.

The Dunmer have been living in the Grey Quarter for 200 years- all of it except for recently under the aegis of the empire. So if Ulfric is racist, so are the imperials and the question is a moot one.

All Ulfric is doing is maintaining the status quo, because he is distracted by the war. The Dunmer pay no taxes and swear no fealty. As the Dunmer woman says when you first enter Windhelm, "we're not taking sides because it's not our fight." The Nords have lived with Dunmer in uneasy separation for a couple centuries- they keep to their own, with some exceptions. You can argue Ulfric is making this worse, but not that he's the cause.

The why is there a Altmer Legate? The Imperial Army is not racist.

And Stormcloak jarls have other races in their household. What's your point?

Did you even read the book on the great war? They signed the treaty so they could build their army back up and not have their entire land and people wiped out. It waseveryone dies, or they bide their time and worship talos in secret.

The Point is that there's so much proof that the imperial army is not racist such as, Imperial Troopers Saving and sacrificing there life to save orismer civillians, Imperial troopers sacrificing there life to save valenwood civilians. While the stormcloaks and ulfric are clearly racist, An argonians says that it was Ulfric who decreed that No argonians would enter the city.

Just because individual troopers are not racist, this does not mean that the empire as a whole is not, especially considering that the believe other races/cultures need to adopt their way of life...i'd define that as racist.

And he may have had reasons for that other than racism? Such as the fact that Dunmer and Argonians are bitter enemies, or the same reasoning the empire uses to keep Khajiit caravans out of their cities.

Even the two drunk idiots in Windhelm are complaining that the Dunmer don't support the Stormcloak cause.

Thats every empire....ever.

i support them not only because they where gonna lop off my head for no reason. but because the empire is a sinking ship only held above the ocean by the terrible kraken known as the thalmor and skyrim is shackled to that sinking ship with the kraken waiting nearby.

Are you really trying to say Ulfric isn't racist?

Skyrim is better off with the Empire then by itself, at least for the time being. That's why I supported the Empire.

First and probably only post I'll make on these forums. First, I really want to thank Bethesda for making such a hard choice between the two.

I'll probably end up making my mind at the end of this post.

Skyrim is under attack from two enemies. First the Aldmeri Dominion for their survival, and the Empire for their freedom. If you want to be technical, in Skyrim, the only ones under assault are those who worship Talos. But by accepting the White-Gold-Concordat, the Empire has demonstrated it has the power *and is willing to use this power* to force people to worship or to not worship whomsoever they choose. Now this one reason with I think only one qualification justifies rebellion. The qualification being that it is not possible to change this law by peaceable means. For me at least, it remains to be seen whether all peaceful options were exhausted. Although in the game it has been demonstrated that Ulfric was willing to negotiate, whether honestly or not who can know.

Now, we have these two options, to support the Empire and quell the Nord Rebellion; or, to support the Nord Rebellion, and in doing so weaken the empire. To what degree is the empire weakened? Considering the empire's forces are largely on the border keeping the Aldmeri Dominion at bay, the forces sent to skyrim are only what is above what is necessary for the defense of the borders. So against the Aldmeri Dominion, the Legion would not be significantly weakened in either case.

Suppose there is War between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Legion again. Is it not unlikely that the legion may enlist the support of a newly freed Skyrim? Is it not also unlikely that Skyrim, knowing its fate is tied to the legion concerning the Dominion, would indeed aid? Now, which is more likely to grant more support to the Legion- a free Skyrim, or an enslaved Skyrim. I think you are more likely to see more support from skyrim when it is free than when it is under the legions control.

So it is my opinion that choosing to join the Empire in quelling the Nords in order to defeat the Dominion is not an acceptable reason. If this is to be the reason, then I think freeing Skyrim is just as acceptable. The Aldmeri Dominion is probably the greatest threat, and the biggest reason I would join the Empire. However, now I think I'm starting to see... joining the Empire is becoming more and more unnacceptable.

Now that the issue of the Dominion is not an issue anymore... the choice becomes purely ideological. Support the Empire, or support Ulfric. If the Empire is going to abuse its trust and power by the White Gold Concordat, there is no way to join them. The choice then becomes to support Ulfric, or do nothing. Doing nothing means the Legion may win, so that doesn't work. So the only choice is to support Ulfric, as it moves Skyrim closer to freedom. He may not be perfect, but there's no doubt that Skyrim will be more free than before.

My only problem is, I personally dislike Ulfric, and I don't like betraying the trust of Baalgruf. But... the Jarl of Whiterun makes his choices fully knowing the consequences, and must accept them if he is to side with the legion.

So... I guess in the end, I'm for the Storm Cloaks, but only as long as they march to the right tune.

The WGC was really unenforced until Ulfric made a giant deal about it.

The High King and many Jarls were known Talos worshipers and nothing happened to them, it was really only because Ulfric started the war that the Thalmor came in and started being dikes about itl

Yes. I don't see any evidence of that.

What the Empire needs is another Tiber Septim who is a dragonborn. Well that would be an interesting fate for all of us. *Muggy I, forced the mass production of mugs to be stopped to the Thalmor & cited war upon all mug haters!*


Notice how the Thalmor are the only ones hutning people down & not Legion troops.

Also notice how before the civil war tons of people got away with it with relativly little to no harassment.

Now you said it out. Ulfric is - not the Stormcloaks. Stormcloaks are working for the freedom of Skyrim and Ulfric leads them on it (even it feels more like Galmar Stone-Fist is leading Stormcloaks - and personally I like him more than Ulfric). Ulfric is not sharing his racist thoughts towards the Stormcloaks. The racism issue in Skyrim is more connected to Windhelm, it's citizens and atmosphere. Stormcloaks are not racists - most people of Windhelm are.
And about the equal treatment of all people I say yes (in real life and with most of my characters too). This is one reason why it took me so many characters before I was ready to work with the Imperials. They seems to widely think that there's not need for equal treatment. They are getting people to executed without fair trial and without any acceptable reason. When you meet Imperial nobles on roads with their legionary guards they act like they are better than you. And have you talk with Battle-Borns? Those Imperial-supporters think they are above others only because they have money! People with such attitude needs an arrow in the knee.

Ulfric may be racist, though I tend to think he is just a staunch nationalist. If he was as racist as most people believe, Windhelm would be pure Nord and Mer heads would be on pikes.

Altmer on the other hand... definitely supremacist.

The Empire has/is approaching the waning days of its life, the sun has set on the Septim dynasty and with the coming of the dragons... the abolishment of Talos via the Concord with the Altmer... the Civil War will spread across all of Tamriel.

Nords have lost a hero, a God... and are right to be angered into rebellion.

The Empire has chosen to selfishly prolong it's demise, and in doing so have only hastened it.

If the Altmer are succesful, TES could be coming to a close really soon.

Don't know if this has been said but you do know the Jarl of Markarth AKA Imperial Supporter allowed Ulfric to gather warriors to take back Markarth in return for allowing the worship of Talos back without the Thalmor knowing. This means that the Empire pretty much knew the Reach was going to be taken back. Unfortunately for Ulfric, the Thalmor found out after he had taken the Reach. Igmund pretty much tells you that after the Thalmor found out, they threw Ulfric under the bus and allowed him to be arrested. Does his anger at the Empire seem unreasonable now?