It is indeed meant to stifle any shouts.

In skyrim's past there were tongues that had to be gagged constantly because any word they uttered would cause immense devastation. Shouts don't work if you can't speak, hence why Ulfric can't just shout it off.

It also depends on build. I can't remember the perk, think it's something in Heavy Armor, but it helps prevent knockdowns, and if you have Paarthurnax give you a Yol boost then that also helps prevent knockdowns. We had this discussion in a thread where I was arguing the dovahkiin couldn't be blasted across the room by enemy thu'um, because my battlemage had only ever been stunned a bit. Then I played a pure mage who got tossed around like a rag doll. lol

I had both the Atronach Perk and Stone activated, so he only had a 1/5 chance of actually hitting me with his Thu'um. In files that I don't have those he can send me flying with his shouts, but against my usual defense minded builds he can't touch me.

I find being at kissing range with the Fus Ro Dah user saves me from the Shout itself.

Many a Draugr Death Overlord tried to Fus Ro Dah me, and at all times, I'm literally right in front of 'em. No Fus Ro Dah worked

Yes he is a murderer.

He fought dishonourably.
Toragg could'nt refuse the fight, and was probabely equal to Ulfric.
So Ulfric did what a coward would do, and used shouts on him. Probabely thought he would lose.
Then stuck his sword in him when he was nearly dead or dead.

If you are going to fight someone like that, you behave honourably.
You use only weapons or things anyone can do. Weapons,magic.
If you agree to a duel, with rules, like, use only longswords or something, you use only longswords.
Well this time it was unwritten. But if you're going to do a traditional duel, you keep to the honourable way.

A random fight is diferent, you can use whatever you want.
But that is not a random fight.

And who is more likely to be telling the truth. The people who were there, or the man who did it.
The people there.

Ulfrics a delusional, racist, psycho who can't even run his own city. Windhelm is falling apart around them. A killer goes round killing nord females, and no one does anything about it.
The dark elves/dunmer live in a slum. The only people Ulfric helps are nords, literally no one else.
He is using the talos worship thing as a way to get supporters.
He is completely power mad.

He was nowere near going to be high king legally. If he was, he could have got there legally or schemed his way to power.
But instead he cheated and acted like a coward.
He has oppointed himself high king. No one else has.
There are people on his own side who see right through him.
Talk to the young guy in Rifton who lost his brother.
Theres a soldier wandering Windhelm, who was abandoned, because he got injured.
His speechs are so sacharine and bull it makes your teeth hurt.
His loyalist supporters are the worst kind of nord possible.

Most people don't even want the stormcloaks about.

Someone didn't read the thread.

I don't even know where to begin...

If you want something that is "traditional" in Nordic culture, nothing beats the Thu'um itself. Only the Nords know of Thu'um, and no other race knows it.

The fact that modern Nords can't use Thu'um indicates how badly the Nords treat the gift from the Gods

Explains why my Dunmer and Altmer characters can use it...

Pretty sure anyone can use the Thu'um with enough training and dedication, like in Ulfric's case. If anyone is treating the gift from the Gods badly, it's Ulfric for using it the way he did; to make a political statement.

Nords and dragons. Both Nord and Non-Nord player characters can use it (instinctively and without training) because they're Dovahkiin, basicly dragons.

He may have won fairly or not i don't give a [censored], i hated ulfric since i picked up the book "the bear of markath"

Okay, before I argue, I have to ask you something since I've noticed you all over the place and you really seem to know the history and canon (no, I'm not being sarcastic - you are like the ultimate reference for all things TES): where are the rules for such a duel described (if at all)? Because I'm thinking that like in a swordfight - you can't use a firearm; or a UFC match - you can't eye-gouge; or an arm-wrestling match - you can't use two hands - so in this challenge for the seat of high King, are you saying it's a free-for-all, like, anything goes? What is the basis for your statement that they're allowed to use "(anything) at their disposal"? I just assumed the idea is that the opponents have a certain set of rules or restrictions. If anything goes, couldn't Torygg have ordered his, let's say, archers to cut down Ulfric before he even reached the High King, since his archers are just an extension of his power just as the Thu'um is an extension of Ulfric's power? The idea of an older experienced warrior picking a fight with a kid, and then using a magical power that wasn't even available to Torygg isn't very noble, nor does it really establish that Ulfric is a better warrior - he didn't even actually fight him - he incapacitated him with magic and then - I'll use the word again - murdered him. And if it's all fair game, and everyone knows this, then why did Ulfric flee the scene?

Dragonborn != Tongue. The Voice was the gift from Kynareth for the nords. Dragonborn seems to be a gift from Shor or Akatosh(Maybe both)

Though it doesn't necessarily preclude other races learning the Voice, they just never have. And the Tongues never took non-nord apprentices in the past.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/evening-star-3e-432


The duel is person vs person, no outside influence as inferred from everyone who talks about it. To be honest, "Nords Arise!" is the only source I have on it that isn't word of mouth. I'm mainly going off of testimony of those in game and the nord tendency to revere the use of thu'um in battle as just.(PGE 1st and 3rd, children of the sky, etc...) As well as the description of the thu'um as being an extension of yourself. Torygg was likely in his early to mid 20's btw.

The use of the thu'um was not meant to show nobility, it was a wake up call and reminder of nordic abilities. Ulfric had to flee because Elisif freaked out when Torygg lost. She ordered his arrest. The imperials unknowing of the nord laws or unwilling to accept them(Despite them using duels to settle leadership disputes too) obliged. Ulfric wasn't about to let the empire screw him over again so he fled.(See Markarth Incident: Empire pinned everything on Ulfric despite all the evidence pointing to Igmund.)

No such thing as a fair fight. However, if a challenge was given, then the challenged has the choice of weapons (at least in the real world, I assume this tradition would be simliar on Tamriel). Using a shout to win is like calling your dragon to eat the other guy. If you think the shout was a "fair fight", then remind me to shoot you in the back should you challenge me to a duel. Afterall, your back was too me...........

Assuming that the challenged party has the choice of weapons, then it was up to Torygg to request the desired terms of the duel with respect to what would and wouldn't be acceptable. If Ulfric didn't like the terms, then presumably he could've backed out and been the one to lose face. There is no indication anywhere from anyone I have talked to in the game that Ulfric violated any terms that were set by either party. So either "terms" with regard to "allowed" weapons is not an issue that is even considered in Nordic duels, or else neither Torygg nor anyone in his camp had the sense and foresight to request them. Or else Torygg chose not request them, for whatever reason. Either way the failing there lies with Torygg.

If both parties agree to the duel and neither party violates any terms that may have been set for the duel, then, yes, it IS a fair fight.

Torygg says he knew he would lose. Sybille echoes this when she says "Torygg had some martial training, but..." The outcome was going to be the same, so Ulfric chose to demonstrate something to the Nords about the power in their ancient traditions and about his own suitability as high king. Dead is dead, does it really matter? The outcome, including the empire not accepting the consequences, would have been the same.

Yeah, that's the thing, people can argue about the use of the Thu'um in the duel, but even if Ulfric hadn't used it and still killed Torygg by more conventional means (which everyone seems to agree would have been the outcome), it wouldn't have made any difference. The fact that it was a "fair fight" in that sense wouldn't have made any difference. The Powers That Be in Solitude would still have branded him a murderer and tried to arrest him, thus forcing him to flee the city.

After that, even if he wasn't planning on an armed rebellion, that's pretty much the only option the Empire is giving him, because he's either going to be the leader of an independent nation or a dead man.