Sybelle isn't a horrible judge of character, she's just a [censored]. There's a difference. Given she's a vampire, I assume a nasty personality just is part of the package. I point out despite her treatment of you as an idjit, she still believes you can causally wipe out a vampire nest.

Likewise, Sybelle claims to have more or less raised the High King.

So, really, I suppose we have his mother's view on his likelihood of supporting Ulfric.

Roggvir was judged a traitor and executed by order of the authorities. That's not murder. Whether anyone who plays the game agrees with his execution is a moot point. You can't change it.

Honestly, even if I agree it was a duel between the two, he IS a traitor.

Just because Ulfric killed him fairly doesn't mean it's your job AS A GUARD to help him escape.

Heh. I had no clue Sybelle is a vampire... I don't think any toon I've played has ever spoken to her.

He was a real [censored], If you talk to this guy in the soltidue inn, he says that roggirv was a complete ass- hole. And by law he deserved it.

As with everything in a Beth game.... you really can't believe anything you hear or read in game.

I played 400 hours and didn't know until I was reading the wiki. She is a vampire, but it isn't stated directly in the game as far as I know, there are just small hints. But if you check the coding she is one.

Yeah, I've got around 400 hrs total over 15 toons.... but I just don't have any reason to interact with her. I do the bits for Elisif and Falk, buy the house, don't get thaneship so I don't have to deal with a housecarl, and go on my merry way....

A lot of NPCs seem to misjudge the Dovakhiin at first. He/She always seems to exude an aura of sheer idocy to other characters upon meeting them, until they realize the Dovahkiin kicks all kinds of ass.
Both civil war factions test you and expect you to likely die a horrible death to brigands/ice wraiths. As to her simply having said she just knew Torryg's thoughts on the matter, that might have just been due to her choice of words that it seemed she just sensed his intent. As far as her assuring Elisif of Wolfskull Cave's safety, it might have been an attempt to not alert the Jarl into dispatching a whole legion (why do that when there's adventurers around, eh? ). I also have a feeling she may secretly be a Janus Hassildor type, you'll notice this if you toss a Turn Undead her way or a Detect Life/Dead, which in that case doesn't put supernatural knowledge out of the question .

Half his Jarls plus many of his personal attendants supported the Empire. It would not be an easy or quick decision to make. I can understand him being cautious in making such a decision unless directly advised to do so and assured of support by Ulfric and the other eastern Jarls.

Alright, cool. Now for the part you likely won't .
To say he accepted willingly is a bit much. Ulfric saw his inexperience and by challenging him, put him in a Catch-22. It was either abdicate his father's throne (he liked Ulfric, but not enough to allow himself to be dethroned for him to take power. Not sure if the Moot could have allowed for candidates other than Torryg and Ulfric or if any of the other Jarls would have tried for it, but Ulfric certainly would have) or he could fight him in a duel, though likely to die, and reach Sovengard without shame. Not much choice there, so he went for #2. Even assuming were going by ancient Nord tradition and all of this is perfectly fine by legal standards (Though I find it laughable that this ancient seemingly unwritten code still holds sway, it's like using Hammurabi's code just because it's old. I doubt this particular one would fly in Germanic countries where they did practice this during more barbaric times.) , it's pretty dishonorable. He could've tried it the peaceful way, but I maintain Ulfric wanted it to come to this so he'd get a chance to be High King.

Very similar to the first, it would depend on if you use ancient Nordic law or present day Imperial law. Which laws you use depends on if you think Skyrim is still an Imperial province or not. Solitude is a city within the Empire's influence at the time of the duel. Even if old Nordic ways like this one were valued as laws, provincial law should not apply where Imperial law supersedes it. Like here in the US, Federal law > State law in every case where the two contradict. So yeah, under the law governing the hold the crime was committed in, he aided an enemy of the state in entrance and escape and is guilty of treason under Imperial law.

Does imperial law supercede it? Should it?

If the duel was illegal, then was Torygg breaking the law by accepting it? What if he had won?

While overall I think trying to impose "real world" conventions on a FCRPG is specious, in this instance I think that by Torygg's acceptance of the duel, illegal or not, that gives it a legality outside Imperial law. Still, Roggvir was himself bound by his oath to the Imperials, so yes, he was judged - and executed - under that law.

There's not a lot of information on how law is handled in the provinces, but I found this in the book Provinces of Tamriel.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Provinces_of_Tamriel
From this it seems that Morrwind is the sole province with some laws of it's own that are enforcable. You can read about their particular setup in A Short History of Morrowind http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:A_Short_History_of_Morrowind (basically a mixture of both systems, imperial legion enforces imperial law, ordinators enforce Temple law).

So yes, I'd say Imperial law has supremacy in Imperial provinces. Torryg may have broken the law by accepting, but he did so anyways. It's hard to say what might have been had he won, maybe he'd be considered having murdered Ulfric by law.

Depends on how you classify "murderer" and how you view a "fair" fight. If you think anyone that kill some one else is a murderer then yeah he is. Durning the duel Ulfric did use a dragon shout to gain what some would say is an unfair advantage. Akin to doign a sneak attack backstab. so some whould say the classical terms of the duel no longer applied since Ulfric didn't so much a win in a fair dual but butcher a helpless man.

Windhelm Dark Elves pay taxes. It's referenced directly if you return Viola's gold ring to her from Sadri.

Fair fight, no. Murder no.
The high king could have just stepped down without dying if he chose to. He consented to the challenge. Maybe. Probably. Maybe not though lol. Might have been a murder.

But if Imperial law is supreme by the basis of them having conquered skyrim then their law only holds supremacy so long as the emperium has the power to hold skyrim. A rebellion that breaks that power is not treason as that power was gained by conquest not treaty. You cant coerce someone to agree to something then call them traitors for freeing themselves from it. I know you didnt call them traitors, but many did.

The guy in the inn isn't an unbiased source on Roggvir. When they were teenagers/adolescents, Roggvir went out of his way to ruin his chances with a girl he liked. Given this is Skyrim, that seems to be the equivalent of breaking up an engagement. Especially since courtship consists of putting on an Amulet of Mara and saying, "Hey, wanna get hitched?"

Roggvir is called an honorable man by the guy who executed him and obviously his family liked him, especially his niece.

However, I'd say that he's a traitor even by Nord traditions. His defense is, "It was an honor duel! It was not murder! So I let Ulfric go!"

In what world does agreeing with it not being murder mean you abandon your duty to assist the man who killed your liege? Even if you agree with him, you do your job.

Interesting. Hadn't tried that before. For the curious, if you return viola's ring directly to her, "I think the jarl should double his taxes. No, triple them. That oughtta teach him a lesson."

Makes me wonder if Ulfric repealed the decree.


Well the empire never conquered skyrim. Skyrim agreed to join because they had a lot of respect for Tiber when the greybeards shouted at him(And he didn't get blasted to ash) and then declared him Ysmir.

If Torygg had won the duel and Ulfric died in it, the empire would have patted their boy on the head and called it a day. It's a joke to talk about their law or the just exercise of their authority. The law is what they say it is, and for them that means whatever justifies their own power. Which no doubt was part of what Ulfric meant to demonstrate, since I'm sure he knew killing Torygg was a provokation the empire couldn't ignore. He just didn't realize they'd put the cherry on it by executing Roggvir.

Roggvir acted out of conscience, believing the duel a fair fight under Nord traditional law which the empire also recognized. It simply doesn't suit them to recognize it in this case. Might makes right. And that's really what the duel comes down to. If you believe Ulfric's cause is just, then what he did is justified. A brilliant political move.

For some of the provinces that might be true, but it's a bit different for Skyrim or Cyrodiil (maybe High Rock too, not sure) because Tiber Septim is the one who did the conquering to form the Empire. There were some Nords and Bretons who fought against him when he was General Talos (Sancre Tor), but eventually much of the Nord populations joined his army after Cuhelecain's death. For Skyrim it was less of a conquering by a foreign power than it was an assimilation into the Empire.
This is from The Rise of Tiber Septim.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/rise-tiber-septim
For some of the other provinces what you mentioned may have been more fitting though as only Morrowind was acquired by treaty and thus has a multi-tier system of law.

What you stated could've been possible, and they'd be wrong for not punishing Torryg had he won. I'm not so sure about that being part of Ulfric's plans though. They've been pretty fair about lawmaking til the Concordat was forced on everybody, nobody really complained before then. Roggvir should have went with them if he was going to do that, other than Imperial law he's violating his oath to his lord as a guard of Solitude. He and Ulfric both would know there's definitely going to be consequences for that. I'd say Ulfric didn't consider him at all though or he would've taken him along or at least pretended he did it himself so Roggvir has to risk (and lose) his neck. Ulfric was probably just glad the gates seemed to magically open for him

It wasn't ever right under the actual code of law that governs Solitude and shouldn't have happened. Not sure what you mean by the Empire recognizing it as fair, they wouldn't have called it a murder if this sort of thing was allowed. And with the sort of legislative power the Empire has over the provinces (only Imperial law is enforceable) they could've made things a lot worse and made illegal all kinds of things, not just what goes against the law of the Empire.

Leold makes good points. I think I'll side with him.

Thanks!

Going to bed now though, six hours until class in the morning :S

Is there any point in the game where it actually says the Ulfric really challenged him? No one says that Ulfric asked the High King to engage him in combat. The stories sound a lot more like Ulfric asked to talk to the High King and then used the voice to kill him, claiming it was a challenge (or for all we know, that's more or less how ancient Nord challenges worked).

I haven't come across anyone that says Torygg agreed to fight Ulfric for instance. Seems to me if ancient Nords could challenge a leader at any time by starting a fight, then that's what Ulfric would have done and he'd have been happy to do it.

I'm a bit unclear about the exact nature of the "challenge" in my mind. Granted, I haven't finished the game yet, and Ulfric doesn't seem inclined to talk to me unless I join the Stormcloaks.

In any case, killing someone in a duel is something I consider pretty barbaric and is clearly something that's rather out of place even in Skyrim. If it was accepted, then there wouldn't be this big problem over it. It seems pretty clear Ulfric just did it to send a message (which both sides agree on), and the fact that message required killing someone wasn't a big concern to him. Probably he also did it because it cleared up the throne of the High King.

Certainly by current laws in Skyrim, it would seem to fit the technical definition of murder. Killing someone, even someone who agrees to fight to the death, would be considered murder today and it seems to be the same in Skyrim. Ulfric merely used ancient custom as an excuse for this killing, and some were upset enough to buy into that, but that doesn't make it legal and so it doesn't make it not murder. That's the most common definition of murder. Looking it up, we can see it also covers killing someone in a barbarous way. It certainly fits that to me.

Skyrim is part of the Empire and has always been part of the Empire. So of course the Empire has some say in how they run things. Plenty of the Jarl's are against Ulfric. Why didn't Ulfric try and call for a moot to elect a new high king? Because he wasn't confident he could win by vote. So he decided to take charge by force the first act was to kill the old high king as he'd be shamed into submission if a new Moot was called for and he lost to the old high king.
Just because he used an anicent nord tradition doesn't mean it was legal Nordic Law. If killing the High King the way he did was acceptable there wouldn't be so many Nords upset about it.