In this case yes. The moot is called if there is a dispute on the position of high king. So if Torygg had refused the challenge it would've went to moot. Because he accepted, the dispute was to be handled via the duel. The victor is high king. If Elisif wished to dispute that, she could have challenged him to combat or called for a moot afterwards. But as of the victory, Ulfric was in nordic law High King.

Thats another piece of judgement you can use against Ulfric though. He didn't have to offer the combat challenge to challenge Torygg's legitimacy to rule. He could've brought it up in a moot instead. Given he didn't trust the jarls(He believed they had been bribed by the empire), and he wanted to make a point, he went the challenge route instead.

If Torygg had won, it would have been self-defense. So I don't see the point of that argument.


Power-mad, I think is a better way to put it, imho.


If duels to kill leaders aren't legal, then why bother to mention it? It's murder to them either way. AFAIK, there are no example of legal duels of this nature in the lore, so there's no reason to think it is legal at all. And when someone surprises everyone with a duel, then kills the other guy with one word before running off, I think it is understandable if people are a bit shocked and slow to react. They obviously did intend on stopping him before he left, but failed to do so because of one guard, who was executed for letting the guy go. I don't see how you can say they thought what happend was kosher.


My only point is he wasn't saying "remember our ancient power nords and use it" like someone claimed. He was just saying "look at me, I have an awesome and ancient power, so you should follow me." It was a spectacle of self-empowerment, not meant to empower the people.


I don't think there's any reason to think there isn't plenty of backbone on all sides. But if you have a long-lived and clever enemy, then you have to be patient and clever as well. All the lore indicats that the treaty outlawing Talos worship and the like was the only way to stop the Empire from being destroyed. Sometimes you have to let go of your pride for a time to survive and fight back another day. Lore also indicates Talos worship wasn't really restricted in Skyrim at all until Ulfric started making a big deal out of it. The smart move would have been to start working within the Empire on a plan to stike back against the Thalmor...plenty of people hate them on all sides and they are the real enemy. I can't see it as good leadership when a guy turns so many potential allies into bitter enemies. It's clear why Ulfric did it, mind you...he wants power. No other strategy offered him a better guarantee of personal power.

It isn't like Skyrim isn't part of the Empire and has been so for hundreds of years. Ignoring mitigating circumstances, are you saying one wrong justifies another wrong? Because it doesn't. What Ulfric did was wrong and was murder. Full Stop.


Or they don't believe in mgiht makes right and are against the idea that any strong warrior who doesn't need to have any leadership capability can go and challenge and kill a leader. That's madness in their era. It might make some sense in far more primitive times, long before the Empire, but not at present. It sets a horrible precendent.


She says how she knows it. She's know Toyrigg his whole life and helped educate him, essentially playing a huge role in his upbringing and thought. Of course she'd know how he'd think.

And it is that Torygg heard about Ulfric's views and him speaking about it. That doesn't mean he heard Ulfric directly. There's no reason to think this was the case. And like Sybille says, there are other important things to consider, such as the fact Skyrim depends on food from the Empire to survive. Complicated problems are why civilized people talk about things rather than go straight to trying to kill each other.


No one is ever universally liked. No one. The fact the biggest complaint anyone seems to have about Torygg is that he said nice things about the Empire...and only one or two people complain about that speaks volumes.

Again, just because he supported the Empire, Tibus Septim's LEGACY, doesn't make him a puppet. Just because he had mixed feelings on a complicated matter doesn't make him weak. Just because a rational discourse might have been able to change his mind (or might not) doesn't meak him weak either. The point is that Ulfric didn't even TRY talking. He just went straight to killing and Civil War.


The Empire, Tibus Septim's Empire, of course always decided. It isn't like it was any other way whenever there was a serious conflict. And it isn't like archaic practices which clearly haven't been exercised in hundreds of years and are barbaric should be brought back. It was clearly against the law, even the Nords of Solitude thought so -- at best you have two that said it was against the law but claimed an ancient custom that isn't practiced anymore allows it.


I'd be more impressed if the people claiming it wasn't murder had something to go on besides some ancient custom that violates the law of the land, the law that's governed them for hundreds of years. An ancient custom that clearly hasn't been practiced in a very, very, very long time.

then challenges like this weren't issued often, which I find odd. It would mean Ulfric had a pretty unique idea among the people of Skyrim. If challenging someone to combat for power was a legitimate part of nordic customs, I just feel it would have been used a lot more often among everyone.

I'm not so sure a moot wouldn't have been called if the empire was not a factor. For such a thing to happen WOULD mean might makes right. I feel like a moot would have been called regardless, but the victorious challenger would have a significant boost of support, or even that he'd be the ONLY option in the moot.

I dunno, it just seems really far-fetched.


Advar: "Jarls start killing each other and we're back in the dark old days."

PGE states it's seen its use over the years. Empire never interfered with it before.


Also the fact that the guards should have stopped the duel from the beginning if it really was illegal.

"I challenge Torygg to a duel to the death!"
Guard: "What? No."
"Very well, I accept!"
Guard: "Hold it you two, this is completely unacceptable, but I'll sit back and watch it happen anyways."

@Drachasor
...

In the war for Whiterun what are we introduced to if not proof that the tradition of dueling or calling out is practiced and still well known in Skyrim?

I think you're sadly too impressed by the implied power and civilization of the word Empire.

Is Ulfric a murderer? No. Did he kill Torygg? Yes. Was it his declaration of war whether he intended it to be or not? Yes.

I didn't get this as a challenge for the title of High King, I interpreted it as a challenge to the lawfulness of having Torygg appointed in the first place. Ulfric's advisors are too crafty and careful in guiding him to the throne. Call on the old ways, remind the people who they are and what they're made of and then step up as the constant representative of those ideals.

No it wouldn't have. Torygg could not face the idea of losing face in front of the other jarls, possibly losing his kingship altogether, if he declined the challenge and a moot was called. So he accepted the challenge, and with that he accepted its consequences both for himself and Skyrim.

If Ulfric's ambition is wrong, so is Torygg's.

You're obviously picturing this happening all in the blink of an eye. Not sure how you figure that. Regardless of how quickly Torygg was killed, he had time to accept or decline and that's all that really matters.

One serves the end of the other, so it makes no difference.

That reasoning works just as well against the empire. They've chosen over and over again to throw their lot in with the Thalmor over their own provinces.

PLZ PLZ people REMEMBER!!!!!1
HIGH ELF does NOT = Thalmor
thats like saying that every american is republican "not to say that JUST republicans in office are every but i believe that both demo and republican members in offics are ALL equally despicably evil"

The King was weak, thats why Ulfric got rid of him, didnt want a King who saw the Empire to get weak knees and repent....plus i was getting the impression that the King was pretty impressionable...
Nords dont care what race u are as long as u not part of the thalmor grp, as long as u can work, prove ur worth and have respect for the traditions in the land u live in....ull do just fine. That is the problem with most of the dunmer in windhelm, they dotn respect the traditions or values of the land thye are currently living in.

Well I dare say I think Ulfric has murdered a lot of guys in his lifetime.
But did he murder the king?
I don't know, some say he challenged the king and won, in that case, no he is not a murderer.

Talos! This thread is well over 3 months old.

There are newer threads than this that discuss about Ulfric

To answer the OP's titular thread post:
Yes, he is a murderer.

If I challenge you to a fistfight, but then pull out a knife and stab you in the gut, am I having a fistfight with you anymore? No. And if I beat you up until you're dead at this point, I'm just murdering you - there was nothing noble about it.
Look at bullfighters - are they really giving the animal a fair chance? No - the animal is stabbed repeatedly with spears; then some fancy in tights dances around it and kills it with a sword - like he's noble or skilled. Same thing.

Ulfric comes in and basically disables Torygg with a shout - the knife in a fistfight - was Ulfric too weak to beat Torygg otherwise in a straight up duel? - and then slays his incapacitated foe. Again, imagine a fistfight - I knife you, you go down - you're out of it - stunned, unconscious, whatever - and I just keep stomping on your face until you're dead - am I a murderer? Hell, yes. Your family would sue, the courts would take your side, and I would be given a jail sentence, not a crown. I can't believe I missed the the first time around.

I kinda feel sorry for Ulfric. I mean he was beaten in the great war, BROKEN by the Thalmor (which he never told any of his supporters for fear they tear him apart), used to start the civil war for them, then took a chance to gain power for himself and take revenge on erm... his own people? (alittle weird) Awww the poor MURDERING coward on a power trip... hes had a tough life hasnt he.

To me he's as close to a murderer as you can get. He's not a good leader for the people because his personal brand of nationalism is equal to racism. A good leader will lead all of the citizens.

He challenged the young High King knowing he had an unfair advantage with his Thu'um. He could have easily talked to Torygg about what would be best for Skyrim and tried to use influence with him instead of killing him, if it was actually about Skyrim and its people. I also can't get past the idea that Ulfric went there knowing he would make Elisif a widow that day...and did it all for his personal ambition. I believe it was personal ambition because, like I said, I don't see signs of caring about all of the citizens of Skyrim and that's what a High King should be about.

Added: Also, I agree with the person who said Ulfric wouldn't have had to flee out the gate if it wasn't murder. I don't think that was part of the Nord tradition after an honest challenge to the leader.

If I tell you I want to fight you and you can bring whatever weapons you want and you bring a machine gun and I show up with a sword, it's my own fault.

That is how the duel works, you're allowed to use whatever's at your disposal. There is no real world equivalent to the nordic culture this day and age. Making comparisons on our law is foolish. Both knew the rules and knew what the other was capable of. Torygg was fully capable of declining.

And no, Ulfric was pretty sure talking to Torygg and asking him to secede would've got himself executed for treason.(Because the empire's been so fair to him before)

That is completely irrelevant. First off Ulfric did not challenge Torygg to a fist fight. He challenge him for the right to be High King. Torygg could've very well not accept his challenge but again that would've made him look bad, and so he was forced to accept. Ulfric put him on the spot. After Torygg accepted then it was then fair game. He accepted his faith.

If Torygg took the time to learn simple magic from the college of winterhold (Nords are known to not trust magic) he could've blocked Ulfric shout with the ward spell.

Ulfric proved to the people in skyrim that Torygg was a weak High King. He was suppose to be the defender of skyrim... yet he couldn't even defend himself.

Holy necromancy.

The court stood by while Torygg accepted the duel, then when he lost they decided it was murder. This is imperial interference in Nord tradition.

If you feel sorry for Elisif, consider that Torygg accepted the duel knowing he was going to lose (according to what he says in Sovngarde).

No it wasn't murder at all. I think it was pretty cowardly though to use the thu'um when he could have just as likely beaten Torygg with just his weapon.

Neither could Ulfric when he met me in battle. He couldn't even push me down with his Thu'um. I on the other hand, sent him flying. It bookended his rebellion beautifully. He uses this Thu'um to plunge Skyrim into civil war, and I use mine to bring order.

On topic: No, I wouldn't qualify it as murder. It was a duel. I don't agree with his use of the Thu'um in that duel, but I don't think he murdered anyone there.

Was it murder? I don't really care. He killed him and I don't like that, laws be damned.

Fixed.

It was a duel not murder. Look at it this way if you attack ANYONE in town the guards are on you so quick your head spins but they just let some dude come in and beat/shout the piss outa their king and no one raises a hand till the king lies dead.

I side with Ulfric and the stormcloaks because of the ban of Talos warship is just wrong. In Oblivion you had to have to blood of a god the blood of one of the Nine to complete the main quest and we used the blood of Talos.

He challenged Toryyg and killed him in fair combat as is nord tradition probably an old tradition abandoned until ulfric brought it back again and he used the voice but it was a fair fight and Ulfric was victorious. the way i see it the war was started because the imperials didnt understand nord culture and saw the killing as a murder and not a fight to the death for the right to be high king.

Not sure what level you were on when you duel it out with Ulfric but playing on masters level and occasionally picking a fight with Ulfric (Out of boredom and when I'm not in RP mode) Ulfric tossed me across the room several times in Windhelm, and I was at level 66 too. I guess it depends on the level and the strength of his Thu'um.

Makes you wonder, is that why Ulfric is gagged in the opening scene?
So he can't shout his way out of an execution?

I could never understand the gag part. Couldn't he just shout the thing off? I can only guess that the gag wasn't some rag but a specialized enhancement that the thalmor developed to temporary seal off the ability to shout? Notice how Elenwen was there?