Ulfric's speech in the Palace of the Kings:


Ulfric's victory speech:


Are you seeing some form of hate speech that I'm not?

Listening to the NPCs I am under the impression that they are more upset with him using the Voice than the actuall killing.

Like most of the world he hates the Thalmor, but I'm not under the impression that he hates elves in general.

Mayhaps not "hate", but he's pretty clearly racist against non-Nords.

Aren't the words Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion basicly(or mostly) describing the High or Wood Elves?
Since it has been re-estabilished in 4E 29 I was assuming the term now meant any elf from Valenwood or Alinor. Not to mention that most High Elves I've met (rougly 60%) are affilated with them, or it's always the random Justiciar #143

However, I got convinced by Celan to give a proper High Elf playthrough a try again, so we'll see.

Yes, there are many witnesses to the challenge. Elisif's advisors say if they had known Ulfric was going to challenge him, they never would have let him in. So he requested an audience, but then challenged Torygg openly and Torygg accepted.

The Rising Threat was written by a high elf, which is what gave me the idea to play an Altmer who was an anti-Thalmor resistance agent. The guy who helps you get into the embassy is a Bosmer and hates the Thalmor. Delphine says it's because his family was killed in "all their purges that we never hear about."

Ulfric probably planned to fight his way out, so he got an assist there. But Roggvir was acting in conscience, as he says up to his dying breath. It was a fair fight, and the empire had recognized Nord tradition before. It's only when it doesn't suit them that they don't.

And, nobody complained? Most of the empire has already seceded. Obviously, there were some complaints in Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Valenwood and Black Marsh. I think you've got quite a rosy view of the empire. A lot of people do, judging from the comments. Just because they're big and have got lots of bureacracy doesn't make them just.
I'm not sure you can say this. They call it murder because Torygg was their puppet king. If Torygg had killed Ulfric, they'd have called it a good day's work.

As I see it, the Empire is fine with Nord traditions as long as they don't get in the way. When someone tries to ressurect a barbaric tradition in order to kill a good ruler? Yeah, they have a problem with it, and rightly so. If the tradition harms no one, then they happily let it continue.



I'll have to play over that again. As I remember it they said if they knew what Ulfric was going to do, then they'd never have let him in. I don't remember any of them calling it a "challenge."

Edit: Ok, no one calls it a challenge at first as much as I saw anyhow. I just became Thane and talked to the Court Wizard again (though I had also done a quest for her so she liked me...as much as she likes anyone I guess). Either I missed it before or I had a new dialogue option to ask how Torygg died. She then says that Ulfric did issue a challenge, though didn't tell anyone that is what he was going to do. So my confusion on the matter is now cleared up.


Some crazy guy comes and starts fighting the High King and the High King beats him? Why wouldn't they call it a good day's work? Well, they'd also sigh and wonder what the heck was going on in Ulfric's head. IF Torygg had gone to Windhelm and acted the same way Ulric did, the Nords there and the Empire would not have approved. Now, would Torygg had kept his position? I'm not sure how that would be handled.

It isn't like Torygg was a "puppet king". Is he a puppet if he felt the Empire did more good than harm for Skyrim? I don't think so. He certainly felt a keen understanding of how people felt regarding the law against Talos worship -- of course, it is also pretty clear in the game that before the Stormcloaks made a big deal about it, Talos worship went on unhindered and everyone let it.

In any case, ancient customs are no substitute for law. Killing someone like that was against the law of the land which makes it murder as best I see it. That's certainly why the guards were after him as their leader seems to have a keen understanding of the difference between law and custom. It's also barbaric like I said before, so it is murder on that count as well.

Race is not synonomous with any particular government or empire. The Thalmor is the ruling government of the Aldmeri Dominion. The Aldmeri Dominion is an Empire established by the Thalmor. That is far from saying all elves are Thalmor or all elves belong to the Aldmeri Dominion.

No one disputes that it was a challenge. They say Torygg felt like he had to accept. To me, that is Torygg and every onlooker acknowledging the legitimacy of the tradition.

He's not just some guy, and he's not crazy. He's a jarl, and as part of the Nord feudal tradition, the king answers to the jarls. They can call a moot, and they can challenge him if they feel he's weak.

People in this thread are quoting Sybille to say that Torygg admired Ulfric's talk of independence, but he never did anything about it. Both he and Elisif are completely ineffectual. They might as well not even be there. It might do for a different culture to have a king who's just a functionary, a figurehead, but the Nords have a warrior king tradition and in these times Skyrim certainly needs one of those, not an imperial yes man.

Could Ulfric have won without using the unfair advantage of the shout? Probably so, but he wanted to make sure there was no chance he would lose. As it stands, its seem a little chicken crap to have done so when he knew well Torygg did not have that ability. Its like going into a fencing match and pulling a gun. Under those circumstances it wasn't a duel, it was murder.

You're assuming he used the thu'um just to win the duel. I think he used it as a wake-up call that the Nords have power in their ancestral traditions that they aren't using, and that if they want to beat the Dominion, they need to stop sitting around on their hands waiting for the empire to do something. Torygg was going to die either way- even he knew that- but Ulfric had a different message to send.

It also demonstrates his claim to be a stronger candidate for king.

He's quite arguably crazy. And there's a difference between losing face by not doing something and the consequences of that thing being legal. Clearly he'd lose face, but just as clearly what Ulfric did WAS illegal. If it wasn't, then there'd be no question that he'd be allowed to leave.


Ulfric is just a lying opportunist. Sybille clearly indicated that quite possibly Torygg could have been talked into rebelling. Ulfric didn't even TRY. Why didn't he try? Because he wants the glory and he wants to be High King. Why does this make Ulfric a liar? Because he claims in his keep (where people pay attention to what he says so he puts up a good front, note when he raises his voice and when he doesn't), that if things could be settled with words, that's what he'd do. He doesn't really believe that at all. He was willing to divide Skyrim into civil war in order to feed his own ambitions.

Again, there's no evidence at all to suggest that Torygg was a figurehead or functionary. None whatsoever. There's nothing to seriously even suggest he was a bad king.

Ancient custom does not make law. What Ulfric did, killing the High King, was unlawful, and hence it was murder. It was also a barbaric way to handle things, which also makes it murder. Either way, he murdered the High King and did not simply kill him. Now you may argue that it was the proper course of action, but one really can't say it wasn't murder.

That's why the Greybeards are teaching so many students the Voice right? That's why Ulfric is taking years to prepare and train up warriors to fight and use the Voice? Oh wait, no he isn't. His murder of the High King was pure propoganda for his side of a civil war he started. It wasn't about demonstrating the Nords should go and tap resources that had ignored.

I don't see what's so "powerful" about an ancient tradition that involves killing a man who's a leader first and fighter second, btw. If anything it demonstrates the weaknesses of some ancient traditions. It also shows that the Thu'um gives power but not wisdom.


Might does not make Right. What he did makes him a poor candidate for High King, as rather than even talk to Torygg about things, he went full-throttle into a Civil War without trying alternatives.

I don't think anyone ill deny that a large part of his motivation is to be High King, but I see him as The Elder Scrolls answer to Prince Bhelen Aeducan. He might be in it for himself, but that does not mean he isn't fit to rule.
Wheter he is fit to rule or not will be decided with the next major step forward in lore, if he Stormcloaks are chosen as winners that is.

Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak, "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls."

He didn't use the shout to ensure the win (I'm certain he could have won without it). He did it as a show of force to the other Jarls so they were more likely to show allegiance or surrender without a fight.

I think he's already demonstrated he's not fit to rule given that he needlessly plunged Skyrim into a Civil War. Lore could choose the Stormcloaks as winners of this struggle and losers in the broader scope of history, btw.

That siad, this thread isn't about that. It's about whether he's a murderer or not. Seems like he is.

So whatever rules the empire makes up are just because the empire made them? How about trying to execute the whole group at Helgen without a trial? Allowing the Thalmor to kidnap and torture imperial citizens?

They're calling it murder now because they don't want to recognize Ulfric's claim to the throne or the fact that Torygg lost in a challenge that he himself accepted. If Ulfric was trying to murder Torygg, they wouldn't have all just stood around to watch the duel. They only decided it was murder after Ulfric won.

Ugh. We've been over this. Sybille is the only one who says this of Torygg, and doesn't say how she knows this. Even if what she says was true, it means that Torygg obviously heard Ulfric speaking about it. That is Ulfric trying. Why is it Ulfric's responsibility to tell Torygg what to do? If he's a real king, then he could have approached Ulfric afterward to ask for support and gone about secession.


I already mentioned the vendor in Solitude who said Torygg wasn't a very good king and all he did was make speeches about the empire. So he was not universally respected, and neither is Elisif. The point is not even that he was a bad king, but that he was weak. An imperial puppet. If he truly wanted independence, then that just goes to show he had no backbone of his own.
Sure it does. Feudal societies had elaborate systems of law based on customs. The empire has their code, but in Skyrim both the old ways and the imperial laws have been in practice all along. Now that they're in conflict, the empire is stepping in and saying that it gets to decide.

Simply declaring "you can't say it wasn't murder" doesn't fly. There is disagreement on this point, in the game and in the thread, so you don't just get to declare your opinion the way it is and that be the end of it.

I would call Ulfric idealistic to a fault and a poor politician, but not crazy. He's quite sane, but his passion prevents him from seeing the bigger picture.


I agree with you completely. He proved that he was the better warrior, not the better leader.

Medieval honor isn't an utterly positive value and a noble is obliged to accept the challenge or be dishonoured. His opponent's strenght or training doesn't effects wheter he's dishonoured or not and as i understand usage of one's Thu'um during a duel is approved by tradition.

We don't know wheter nobles' right to challenge to another is forbidden by imperial law or not. However imperial propaganda of calling it "murder" without mentioning any "duel", makes me belive it isn't barred at all. Also not a single person in Torygg's company act to stop Ulfric after his "murder" and that's supports the possibility of Ulfric's "lawfulness".

He says that anyone could ask the Greybeards for training if they wanted to, but it takes discipline and will, and Torygg and the other jarls have neither. There is some boastfulness in that, but also fact. Whether he will go about training soldiers in the thu'um, I don't know. He says he still thinks it shouldn't be used lightly. But up til now he's been a little busy being imprisoned by the empire and running a rebellion to start a thu'um college (I'm interested to hear about the one that had been planned in Markarth).

I have no doubt that part of his intent was to show that he embodies the ancient Nord warrior king tradition better than Torygg did. He says as much. But he's not wrong about that.

When you have an enemy like the Dominion breathing down on you, you had better have some might. More importantly, some backbone.

I know, I started it

Well, from what I see in this thread he both is and isn't a murderer depending on viewpoint. One point I think is very valid, however, is that the Empire and its supporter proclaim him a murderer because he is against them. If Torygg had won no one would have cared.

Hmmm? If Roggvir believed the duel to be fair then he was protecting the high king of skyrim from imperials. Would've been his duty to protect him. The only question is whether he is beholden to imperial or nordic laws.

hold on. Let's backtrack a second here. The process of becoming High King is not really established in the context of the duel. Was the prize of the duel (imperial laws ignored for the moment) the actual throne of High King? Or would there have to have been a Moot still? I don't think they ever indicate another way of becoming high king other than a moot. Ulfric and the stormcloaks claim he is the true "high king" but do they ever actually explain why? I don't believe they do. I think they just claim that because Ulfric is leading the rebellion.