So, do you think Ulfric is a murderer because he killed the High King or do you think it is propaganda spread by the people who oppose him?

I think it was propaganda to turn the people against Ulfric, Ulfric won in fair combat against the High King.

Did you ask anyone in game about this? There are several stories presented and it's easy to draw a conclusion from the evidence presented.

Fair combat. High king lost. End of.

Depends on how you think about it, based on several factors:

• The challenge was an ancient Nord tradition. But Torygg was under Imperial influence
  
• Ulfric used a Shout. Torygg couldn't use any
  
• Ulfric kind of lied about only wanting an audience with the High King, as not even the Nordic High King will allow him to enter should he be honest about wanting to challenge him. However, in order to challenge the King, he needed to meet the guy first (you can't challenge someone who is not in front of you), so there.

Yes, but I still support him. Any one with a ton of power (leaders of nations) are murderers depending on who you ask.

I ask because I want the opinion of the people of this forum. Even if it can be pretty much proved that it was fair combat we all know the battle was decided from the start and if Ulfric is a murderer because of this.

If you speak to the people who were close to Torygg, in addition to hearing Ulfric's own version of the story, you may change your mind if you said no.

This is the main reason I turned against Ulfric even though I was already in the Stormcloak questline. The civil war was completely unnecessary. It could have just been the "Skyrim Secession War" instead of a civil war within the province.

The challenge was made and accepted. The rules are that there are no holds barred (no not even shouts). By accepting the challenge it was well understood that it was to the death. Not a murder. The challenge isnt about "evenly matched fight". Its about survival of the stronger.

The king even had the choice of rejecting the challenge. But he would have lost his kingship and he didnt want that. Bottom line - he was a weak king and didnt deserve the kingship under Nord law. The only way you can justify him remaining as king is if you reject Nord tradition.

Do you mean because Torygg supposedly approved of Ulfric's talk of secession?

Even if that's true, he wasn't going to do anything about it. I find it a suspicious contradiction from other things we hear of Torygg- that all he did was make rambling speeches about the empire. That doesn't sound like a secessionist to me. Regardless, a king shouldn't have to wait for a jarl to tell him what to do. If Torygg wanted to secede, he should have asked for the jarls' support and done it. There would still have probably been a civil war, but Ulfric would probably have supported him. He (Ulfric) speaks well of Torygg's father. He also doesn't seem to have any rancor towards Torygg himself. He just believes he needed to die in order to move Skyrim toward the goal of independence.

In my opinion, I think Ulfric did murder the high king. However, it was a just and noble cause simply due to the fact that nobody should have to give up their personal liberties simply for the hollow promise of a little security.

I quote Ben Franklin and paraphrase at the same time, "Those who would trade their freedom for their security eventually lose both and deserve neither."

challenge was made and accepted, so by technicality, no. However, the use of The Voice to either cripple Torygg or kill him, depending on the stories, is indeed a different matter entirely. The Greybeards themselves feel that for a non-dragonborn to use the voice in such a way is tantimount to treason.

It was an underhanded tactic, and really not a fair way to assess combat skills. It's as if Ulfric brought a gun to a knife fight.

This is why I never liked Ulfric. He's really a [censored].

Nope, he believed that the king must die for him to become king.

I've never heard Arngeir talking about Ulfric's usage of the Shout. Especially not in such a double-standard way

The Shout has been in Nordic culture before Jurgen Windcaller was born. I find it very weird that the High King of The Nords can't use a Shout

Wasn't the High King still a boy ? just a question

He's a young man but an advlt. In Sovngarde he appears... well, it's hard to say. I would put him at 25.

No, he was an advlt. Young, but still advlt or so he seems when you meet him...

Torygg accepted the challenge and lost. What more needs to be said?

The only people who are calling Torygg's death murder are those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, that is, the Empire and their puppets.

Semantics.

Nope, if you play the main quest you'll eventually see the old high king and he'll look like he's in his late thirties-mid fourties. I'd say he was a boy in the metaphorical sense

This, I think the point is ulfric although challenging legitimately torygg knew that he in combat would always win as supposedly torygg was still a boy and definately not a seasoned warrior with the power of the voice.
Maybe Torygg was stupid to accept the challenge, maybe he was naive or maybe he was forced into it. But no matter which of these is true, Ulfric always intended to kill him and knew he could with ease.

they greybeards, if you talk to them, and Ulfric, who was going to be a greybeard, say that they really abhor the use of the voice for anything other than meditation and prayer, though the greybeards acknowledge the necessity of the dragonborn using it in combat, plus dragonborn is exempt.

But Ulfric had training next to no current nord has, does not seem to have told more than a handful that he was trained in the way of the voice to be a greybeard, and certainly did not inform Torygg. He even says he doubts he'd be welcomed back to High Hrothgar, or that the Greybeards would approve of his use of the voice.

He also says "I challenged him in fair combat. true, he never stood a chance. but that was precisely the point." What was the point? That few can stand a chance against one trained in the Voice? Well duh! I could tell you that, after killing countless via the voice. But how does that prove you're better in combat? You pussied out, Ulfric. You didn't fight man to man, you used a very powerful, hidden magic ability to cripple your opponent, then stabbed him.

If you talk to Torygg in Sovngarde, he says he knew he was going to die yet still accepted it because of his honor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUlxeWztxcg skip to 20 seconds

It's propaganda. He was beaten in a fair fight.

I've never heard of Arngeir talking about that. How did you get him to talk about it? I've chosen all the options and the last available option is about Paarthurnax's life.

That is the question: how come no other Nord but Ulfric train their Shout? The Greybeards were not the only guys with Voice, there were countless other Nords, but for some reason the powerful Shout is lost to history?

He didn't... "pussied out", he was smart. He chose his opponents carefully. You don't ride into a battle that you'll lose. Besides, Ulfric has the capability to use it, it's only natural for him to use it