Ulfric is a leader of men who are killing other men for their ideals and political beliefs.

The last I checked this is not the definition of a murderer.

Ulfric Stormcloak called out the then High King Torygg and challenged him. The High King accepted the challenge and failed to beat Ulfric in combat. Regardless of how fair or "unfair" the use of the voice might be in this circumstance, Torygg COULD have been a vampire or werewolf and if he'd won that way would he then have to be called a murderer? Dueling is dueling and the calling out in challenge practice is as old as the Nords... totally legal.

Only the Empire says it's against the law.

That's part of the issue as well, and no doubt something Ulfric meant to challenge- is ancient Nord tradition going to be valued, or does the empire get to decide when it's valid and when their laws prevail? A lot of the pvssyr is about whether the Nords are able to govern themselves without imperial law. The Nords themselves are of two minds about it.

I know that, but it still goes to whether or not an elf is able to make her way in Windhelm despite the Nords' coldness towards them. There is also Nurelion, and the couple who own the stables.

It's kind of funny to overhear Niranye chatting Captain Lonely-Gale up and trying to recruit him as a smuggler. You go girl.

Well, if the High King doesn't think it's murder, it's not. If anyone gets to decide it's him.

Still, it was premeditated and shameless.

It is still an imperial province, but in the past, the empire has for the most part allowed provinces to still govern by their rules so long as they swear fealty.(See Morrowind and slavery or the necromancy ban though it was legal in cyrodiil) Ulfric's challenge would've forced a moot to convene because it was a challenge to the legitimacy to the throne. But since Torygg accepted it, it ended up being a duel instead. Had he not, then the moot would convene and decide whether ulfric's claim was legitimate. Civil war would still have been possible because the jarls don't always agree on everything. But Ulfric's claim would've lost its legitimacy had the moot not come to agreement.

I'd say he is. He knew Torryg would've supported him if he'd have asked, but he doesn't just want to split from the Empire. He wanted to be in charge of Skyrim as it's High King. He may want independence, but he's also seeking power as a major component or even the entire reason behind his rebellion. Fortunately for him, he's got an excuse in ancient Nordic tradition, or so his people say.

It's a ridiculous and backwards tradition IMO, what if you've got a wise high king who isn't in shape to fight anymore, or a king that's better with his head than with a sword (as a king should be, he's a manager of his nation as High King, a strong warrior or skilled assassin may not make a good statesman.). I'm not impressed with Ulfric as Jarl of Windhelm either, giving support when Nords are attacked outside the gates but not Dunmer, apparently as Jarl you can choose who to defend and who to let die by whether they are doing things for you.

To my eyes, Ulfric is a Kingslayer, and I wouldn't support him. He didn't even try working within the system to accomplish independence because that wouldn't give him his very own kingdom.

Osama bin Laden says hi.

Also, just for fun, the California (my home state) penal code:


But we live in a far more enlightened age.

The use of the voice in and of itself belonged to the Nords, passed down to warriors through the Tongues and trained by the Graybeards as I understood it.

It's more likely that our newest group of Graybeards are more careful with training because they want to keep politics and all of the war going on below them well away from High Hrothgar.

Ulfric was in training to become a Graybeard and walked away for the first war. He's being politically correct and not necessarily straightforward when he says that any Nord can request the training. Anyone can request 100,000 gold and a pony from the Jarl of Markarth, too... doesn't mean they'll get it.

I haven't found any books explaining why warriors no longer use the way of the voice. I'd have thought the worshipers of Talos would know it and train it...

I don't live in Tamriel, I play there.

PGE states there should have been a college of the voice in Markarth...but looks like it didn't make it.

Wait, back up. We don't know that he knew this. The only person we hear this from at all is Sybille Stentor, who isn't very reliable for reasons I stated upthread. All she says is that Torygg silently admired Ulfric when he was speaking out about independence. Sooo.... isn't that Ulfric asking him to secede?? What else was Torygg waiting for, an engraved invitation?

In that case, the king could decline the challenge and probably a moot would be called. Torygg probably feared that a moot would take Ulfric's side, especially if they viewed his demurral as weak, whereas Ulfric didn't trust a moot because he believes the jarls have been hand-picked by the empire and bought off with their coin.

Jurgen Windcaller began the teaching that the thu'um should only be used for worship of Kynareth. It's not new to the present Greybeards.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Jurgen_Windcaller#Jurgen_Windcaller

No not a historian. I just think judging someone based on morals that didnt exist isnt fair. This trying Ulfric based on modern morals is much like ex post facto law. You dont pass a law today so you can convict someone for something he did last year. Its not right. And yes we are talking morals not laws, but that doesnt change the point at all. Ulfric followed the accepted morals that existed in his time.

@Celan, you rock! Thanks.

umm... we're forgetting the primary question here is whether we beleive Ulfric is a murderer... My answer is No, I do not. Period.

If you ask Ulfric about it he's very clear that he "tested" Torygg with his shout and that it was his blade through the man's heart that killed him. You can argue semantics all day. Only the rumors suggest that Torygg was killed by Ulfric's shout. I've been with the guy in combat and I'll attest to the fact that they're not dying when they're hit.

Hire the Dark Brotherhood to gank him in the shadows or slip poison in his stew or sneak up on the guy in his sleep and kill him and that's murder. Walk in face to face and challenge the guy's right to his position and have him take you up on it in his own defence and then lose because he wasn't prepared or wasn't as strong as his challenger? well... oops and ouch. Welcome to law in the wilds of Skyrim, folks. It's just the Nord way of doing stuffs.

The fact that she is allowed to live in the good side of town isnt due to her money. Its due to her attitude. Theres plenty of dunmer with money that arent getting out of the grey quarter. What are they doing wrong?

In the Nordish tradtions, somewhat of a yes & no due to his usage of the voice. Remember, Ulfric is suppost to follow the way of the voice, but he did not. In my opinion, that makes him a murderer.

The voice didn't kill Torygg... Ulfric's sword did. That's sort of right out of Nord Traditions 101

And Ulfric didn't say he follows the way of the voice. He left the cult and is still using some of the tools he learned while he was there.

I am not saying he killed him with the voice. He used the voice in combat aginst him for his own use. He did not follow the way of the voice even though he is able to use it. It does not matter if he is apart of the cult at all, for they thought him how to build on his talent.

It really depends on your view and opinion, In my view he did murder him, but that just my view.

Talking about independence and actually requesting it are different things. Dissatisfaction with the treaty is pretty uniform throughout the Empire, such talk might have been common. Actually acting on it though, secession would not something to be iffy on, he might have wanted direct word from Ulfric and other Jarls on taking action. He was a young and inexperienced High King, I'm sure he could've used advisemant from his Jarls and would've been smart to value their input. I'm not sure about Sybelle's character as a witness, but she's seems to be an important member of Elisif's council and an experienced mage.
He was a young king, with Ulfric being far more experienced in life and war. He may not have wanted to risk being shamed by denying the challenge, and wanted to prove himself. A more experienced and illustrious king may have declined, and allowed the Moot to convene. Had he already established a reputation, he may have been voted High King again anyways, but he hadn't been High King for very long.

So let me get this straight. To issue a challenge to the High King, you've got to get an audience. But if the High King knows you're going to issue a challenge you won't get the audience, right? Hmmm. So you just say it's about "State Matters." True, but a lie of omission. Then according to Nord customs, the High King must accept or decline. If the High King were to decline, then the challenger automatically wins and would become High King anyway, having proven himself/herself the stronger based upon cowardice of the High king. So the High King accepts, and knows he's going go lose to Ulfric.

In this case Ulfric shortens the match and uses the shout and then kills his quarry. One could make a case that Ulfric was being merciful in using the shout, rather than drawing out this rather nasty business to its inevitable end. In any event, the young queen from what I've seen is not a competent ruler. In a few years she might grow into one, but she still would have to gain the support of the other jarls which apparently she does not have. At the moment Gen. Tullius rules Skyrim through Queen Elsif, and would overrule her on any critical decision.

So to answer the question posed in the OP: no, I find Ulfric not guilty.

It was a challenge so that isn'y murder, but I do wonder if Ulfric still would have issued the challeng if Torygg was more battle hardened and was able to use Thu'um himself. But no it wasn't actually murder if it really was a dual.

he challenged Toryyg and defeated him in single combat as is nord tradition so to me no Ulfric is no more a murderer than an orc chieftan who had to slay his father to become chief due to tradition.

This is a complicated issue. My opinion is that he is not a murderer, HOWEVER the use of the shout was NOT fair combat, at least not by most definitions.

Why he isn't a murderer:

1) Torygg had the choice to say no. It's not much of a choice, but Torygg went into the fight knowing that he would likely lose, and was willing to die rather than give up his throne.

2) It was a duel sanctioned by Nord tradition.



Why this wasn't fair combat:

1) By most definitions that I have read, fair combat involves both sides using the same weapons. Ulfric had a weapon that Torygg did not - the shout, and used it, which in my opinion is dishonorable and not in the spirit of fair combat.

2) Several people have stated that Torygg could have easily just learned to shout like Ulfric did. This is NOT the case. Ulfric's situation was unique. He was called to study with the Greybeards at around 10 years old and dedicated the next DECADE to learning to shout along with them. You don't just waltz up to High Hrothgar, spend a lovely weekend there, and leaving knowing how to fus roh dah people to death. Ulfric had to dedicate a decade of his life to the study. In order to shout equally, Torygg would have had to go to High Hrothgar as a child and spend 10 years learning how to shout. It's just an unreasonable expectation for almost any Nord to do this.

3) Torygg didn't have much of a choice in whether to fight or not. I mean, he sort of did, but if he said no he would be seen as a disgrace and unfit to hold the throne, and having dishonored his family.

My conclusion is that Ulfric did NOT murder Torygg, but his method of killing him was dishonorable and wrong.

As for the issue with the Way of the Voice, I honestly don't think that the fact that Ulfric doesn't follow it is criminal. It is his decision. He was taken to High Hrothgar as a young boy and not really given the option to decide if the Way of the Voice was what he believed. He left High Hrothgar when he realized he could not follow that philosophy despite the Greybeards' attempts to indoctrinate him. That is not a crime. The Way of the Voice is a choice, not the law. Despite his leaving, Ulfric himself states that he uses the Voice sparingly and holds high respect for it and the Greybeards, even though he failed to follow the way like they did.

And finally, as for the claim that Torygg might have tried for independence if Ulfric had asked... I doubt it. Torygg was extremely impressionable as a King. He was surrounded by Empire-favored advisors who told him what to do and how to act (the same ones who do the same not for Elisif, unfortunately). Of course Torygg would consider independence if Ulfric asked - Torygg considered ANYTHING ANYONE told him, because he didn't have the experience to make his own choices. But I can guarantee that the moment Torygg brought what Ulfric said up with his "advisors," they would stop any notion of succeeding from the Empire real quick. While I don't think that Torygg deserved to die, Ulfric's claim that he was a puppet of the Empire is not far from the truth.

I'll quote myself from a page or two ago:

If Torygg wanted to secede, he would have started the ball rolling. That's the bottom line. He's the king, and inexperienced or not the buck stops with him.
I can agree with this. All it establishes is that Torygg accepted the challenge willingly.

Question to all: Was Roggvir murdered?