Quest Markers, and why they should be discontinued. : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:42 am

Just turn the HUD opacity down. Then you can quest by using the that wonderfully detailed journal that we had in previous TES games.

Wait a minute..

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:28 pm

I can vouch for that. I've come across more than a handful of quests that have literally provided no information on where you're going. The reason for this is because with some quests, the location changes randomly. That's understandable, but for quests where locations aren't random, it is kind of annoying when you want to find the location yourself and not rely on markers.

In the end, however, you can just chalk it up as the NPC marking the location on your map. There's nothing far-fetched about that.

Which is exactly what's happening here. Evreytime I recieve a quest, that's what the NPC says, "Here, let me show you on your map." It's not that big a deal. Certainly, I do agree that maybe it should be an option, but are you really going to lambast the game and get all upset for something as minor as this?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 am

You know those treasure maps you can find, "treasure Map VII" and such, that make you look for various landmarks to find where you're going. Yeah, fun every once in a while, but to do this for every quest in the whole game?

Damn son, I have enough trouble getting around in real life, and we have streets with street signs and GPS. I wouldn't want to play a game where I had to spend an hour running around in the woods wondering if I was supposed to turn left at this rock, or that other rock... and I turned around once already, so should I turn right instead left? Hell, even with the quest markers I have trouble.

Just no, dude. This is one area where the 99% of people who want a fun game should win out over the 1% of people who want a medieval navigation simulator. Sorry.

Never assume you are in the majority, and last time I checked Morrowind sold perfectly fine without a quest marker.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:54 pm

I like to look at the location on the map, head to that dungeon, turn the quest marker off, explore the dungeon, ????, profit.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:28 pm

I'm all for quest markers. But I'm just curious to know if there is a problem with the game the way it is now when you can actually switch off all the quest markers and turn off the hud so you can't see the compass. By doing these two things does that not make the game play exactly the way that hardcoe rpg players want it to be ?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:40 am

I'm all for quest markers. But I'm just curious to know if there is a problem with the game the way it is now when you can actually switch off all the quest markers and turn off the hud so you can't see the compass. By doing these two things does that not make the game play exactly the way that hardcoe rpg players want it to be ?

The journal doesn't provide adequate instructions

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:02 am

I'm all for quest markers. But I'm just curious to know if there is a problem with the game the way it is now when you can actually switch off all the quest markers and turn off the hud so you can't see the compass. By doing these two things does that not make the game play exactly the way that hardcoe rpg players want it to be ?

Only slight problem with this is I can`t see my health. In reality you`d have a good idea how hurt you are. But I do have the HUD dimmed all the way down to one notch so I can just tell what my health is. I wish Bethes could have given us the option to keep on all essential stuff like Health, stamina and possibly magicka (for wizards) . I did use a Mod to get rid of the compass too since I could still see that- and enemy health.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:34 pm

no big deal, you can disable and activate them anytime

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Only slight problem with this is I can`t see my health. In reality you`d have a good idea how hurt you are. But I do have the HUD dimmed all the way down to one notch so I can just tell what my health is. I wish Bethes could have given us the option to keep on all essential stuff like Health, stamina and possibly magicka (for wizards) . I did use a Mod to get rid of the compass too since I could still see that- and enemy health.

I can see where your coming from now and there is really no excuse why they don't have multiple hud layouts just like you get with all driving games. This could surly get patched could it not for this to happen.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:53 am

Quest Markers need to be discontinued because they diminish the single most important appeal of any Bethesda game: The World.

The World is the main character of any Bethesda game. We all have different play styles, we all have different values, we all do things our own way - but the fundamental truth is that the only universal appeal of a Bethesda game is exploring a massive world. Bethesda themselves have tacitly admitted they aren't the best developers for combat, or dialogue, or character modelling, etc. But they know - just as we know - then when it comes to building a living, breathing world - they are second to none.

Thus, it is of utmost importance for gameplay to reflect the strength of a Bethesda game: exploring a World. Anything that diminishes exploration of the World, is diminishing the appeal of a Bethesda game. Anything that enhances the exploration of a World, is enhancing the appeal of a Bethesda game.

Quest Markers are a toxic inclusion that psychologically override the feeling of being in an explorable world, diminishing the universal appeal of a Bethesda game. When arriving at a new city, instead of the emotional reaction of having your breath taken away by a large town to explore, you are perpetually forced to acknowledge that everything around you is a secondary asset to your "objective". This sensation, the wonder, the joy - is tarnished. You are no longer tasked with the pleasure of exploration, of talking to strangers, of entering all buildings to locate your target. Instead, NPCs and buildings are trivialised because you are actually told they are trivial. The city "shrinks". Everything around you simply becomes an "asset" in a game.

In Elder Scrolls, you used to have to get directions from an NPC to locate something, for example, an NPC would tell you: "Head south from town until you reach the bridge, then head west until you reach the cave. It's just north of the stone statue". This system is actually an incredible enhancement to the feeling of being in an explorable world, for two reasons. 1. It engages NPCs meaningfully. and 2. It compels the player to actually view their surroundings, greatly expanding the scope of the world by having them physically navigate it with tactical instructions.

Naturally, some form of guidance assistance should be present in future games, which of course, brings me to mention Clairvoyance. Clairvoyance is actually a PERFECT replacement for Quest Markers for two reasons. 1. It is entirely optional and uses an expendable resource (magicka),.... and 2. It doesn't spoil the destination, it just provides the direction you should head in to reach the destination. For those two reasons, it would work as the perfect solution to those who get stuck. Oh, and if someone is going to state that Quest Markers are also optional and that I am making a needless complaint - that is inaccurate. Although you can indeed turn off Quest Markers in Skyrim by deactivating quests, the journal does not provide location information for most quests, which actively forces the player to require the use of them - or using the Journal, M>locate function.

In conclusion, Quest Markers should be discontinued because they diminish the sensation of exploration of a world, and the world is the single most important factor of a Bethesda game. For future titles, location information should be entirely journal-based from NPC directions, with the inclusion of the optional Clairvoyance spell for those requiring further assistance. This is the most ideal system to enhance the world, and thus, enhance Bethesda's games further.

So.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:25 pm

A better idea would be to have dialogue informing you of the location (like in Morrowind) and make quest markers optional instead of removing them completely.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:37 am

In quests where we are supposed to actually look for something there are no quests markers, the investigations ones either. There are other where, instead of saying "go north, south, etc" npcs say "let me mark it on your map". Its good for me.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:29 am

Quest Markers are a toxic inclusion that psychologically override the feeling of being in an explorable world, diminishing the universal appeal of a Bethesda game. When arriving at a new city, instead of the emotional reaction of having your breath taken away by a large town to explore, you are perpetually forced to acknowledge that everything around you is a secondary asset to your "objective". This sensation, the wonder, the joy - is tarnished. You are no longer tasked with the pleasure of exploration, of talking to strangers, of entering all buildings to locate your target. Instead, NPCs and buildings are trivialised because you are actually told they are trivial. The city "shrinks". Everything around you simply becomes an "asset" in a game.

If you are pursuing a quest or keeping a quest active lest you forget it, then psychologically you really are acknowledging that everything around you is secondary to your objective. Quest markers don't cause you to make that acknowledgment, but only serve to remind you of what you yourself have already acknowledged. If you are serious about not trivializing the world, about making quests secondary to your exploration of the world, then open your journal and switch them off.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:47 am

what's wrong with the journal just saying talk to wee jimmy at the inn at riverwood. its short and sweet and gives you all the info you need.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:13 pm

what's wrong with the journal just saying talk to wee jimmy at the inn at riverwood. its short and sweet and gives you all the info you need.

Except it doesn't, it says talk to Jimmy and thats it.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:33 am

Except it doesn't, it says talk to Jimmy and thats it.

well more info on the quest subject and location along with a multi hud layout should really get fixed.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:43 am

well more info on the quest subject and location along with a multi hud layout should really get fixed.

Precisely my dear Watson

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:20 am

I fully agree with the OP, I have made the point several times myself. IMO it's all very well saying you like the markers because it removes all the tedious exploring & finding, but then I have to ask whether you're playing the right game - a game that has a first position of exploring & finding. As it is, you're playing a game where all you're doing.... is following an arrow. Literally, you are playing a game with a built-in walkthrough. You are told where to go, who to talk to. I cannot see any gameplay in that, ad I suggest that the game becomes a slightly more involved Mortal Kombat because of it.

OK, I may be over egging that point, but I think it's valid. Enough people say they like it for it to remain an option I guess (as baffling a concept as it is, I have to bow before popular opinion) but I have to wonder why the central core concept of an explorable world was lost.

Actually I do know - the voice acting dialogue system is responsible IMO. Once the text dialogue was dropped, a lot of NPC flexibility was lost. Procedural dialogue is now not possible, and so generated directions from NPCs cannot be possible. So the quest-marker was placed in and a large part of the gameplay is removed.

And yes, it IS gameplay. Playing a TES game was as much about exploring & finding as anything else, getting lost is not a barrier to gameplay, it IS gameplay.

But, I have no problem with optional quest markers & fast traveling for found locations, just, you know, make it part of the game not the walkthrough.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:47 am

Wonder if they could do something like the Treasure Maps you find on some bandits. Nice little hand drawn map to a location. Not for every quest, mind you, but one or two here or there would be refreshing. EDIT: Damn, someone beat me to it with this idea. Should have read entire thread :blush:

I would love better descriptions from NPC's. I was frustrated sometimes by directions given to me by NPC's in Morrowind, but I felt it was a better system than Quest Markers. Keep Quest Markers, have the option to turn them off, give better directions, allow Clairvoyance to help find where you are going, put directions in journal.

I'm kind of on the fence about, "let me mark it on your map". It makes sense that a quest giver would be able to do this if they actually know the location. But it also feels like a Quest Marker without the Compass. ~~If the mark on the map gave the approximate location it might be nice.....or not.~~

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:57 pm

Convincing people unused to rpgs that their enjoyment would be much better without the GPS quest markers and having the old-fashioned map and journal is much like trying to pull a dummy (pacifier) from a child that`s grown too old for it.

Expect much resistence.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:23 pm

just turn them off

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:50 pm

Convincing people unused to rpgs that their enjoyment would be much better without the GPS quest markers and having the old-fashioned map and journal is much like trying to pull a dummy (pacifier) from a child that`s grown too old for it.

Snidely comparing them to children svcking on a dummy probably isn't going to help you none either....

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:00 pm

Snidely comparing them to children svcking on a dummy probably isn't going to help you none either....

Your avatar isn't helping either :rofl:

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:32 pm

i'm sorry... i've been trying to follow the line of thought all night, but all i can think is "OP is irate and opinionated" and "replies are irate and opinionated"

i'm calling it troll-bait now, since OP hasn't said much else besides "Winning"

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:11 pm

Actually I do know - the voice acting dialogue system is responsible IMO. Once the text dialogue was dropped, a lot of NPC flexibility was lost. Procedural dialogue is now not possible, and so generated directions from NPCs cannot be possible. So the quest-marker was placed in and a large part of the gameplay is removed.

At first I would agree with this statement, but then why couldn't they have the actor give directions. "I need you recover that whozzywhatsitz. It's in Rockyweed Cavern. Go north out of town and then follow the road west toward markarth. It will be on the right"

I gues expense of paying someone for the extra dialogue could be a problem, but you could just as easily put, instead of "I'll mark it on your map", "Here, take these directions" and have it added to your journal. That way the directions are there in the quest journal for you. Heck, leave the "I'll mark it on your map" if you want, or don't, and still put the directions in the journal without any voice acting dialogue.

The only problem would be radiant quests that pick a random location.