Interesting - I'm gonna' have to play around with Invisibility. Now, will the fact that I have no perks in Illusion make Invisibility work on higher level targets?

Invisibility is not dependent on any illusion perks for its effectiveness. What you --will-- need to use it effectively is silent casting however. Invisibility makes noise when cast, and that ruins the effect. Worth the investment- yes.

Damn. Only 4 perks though (I have 7 points to spend and pretty much have all the perks I 'need') - I'll think about it.

Even if you decide you don't like Illusion, Silent Casting works for all schools of magic, and shouts. It's very versatile!

I don't use much magic, but, I'll admit, I do use Detect Life quite a bit when I'm Sneaking around.

I can always use the Oghma Infinium to recover 'lost' perks, too.

All this is interesting but it seems geared toward a stealth dual wielder.
My character is a stealth archer so none of this really seems needed.
Udey how can you say alchemy is useless,I've found it to be one of the better skills in the game,it's saved my butt several times now.
I understand your point about casting invisibility over potions but thers alot of great poisons that can be made.

Mine's at 99 (almost 100) and I pretty much just use it to make Fortify Smithing (+120%) potions on the assassin chick so I guess you could say that down my path(s) it's not super useful. On my Heavy Armor wearer I can use the found/purchased Fortify Smithing potions of +50% to get my Daedric and Dragonplate well over the armor cap.

I did say it is useless- from a "best" point of view. Ill elaborate. I mean that if we are choosing best places to place perks, then they are better spent in other spots besides alchemy (unless you are doing the enchanting/smithing/alchemy loop - which I said is a valid reason)
If you are a thief, and are not using that loop, then soon enough (taking some backstab perks) you will find yourself not needing poisons. Gaining a few levels- and you start finding 100s of potions health/magic/stamina in urns/bottles.
all throughout the game are scattered the orange potions of fortify whatever ability, and paralysis potions- require no "perks" to make and are easily available from shops as well.

I do - wish that alchemy was a more useful skill. What I mean is I WISH potions were rare, or gamefound potions were weak, but they are common and they are strong, and checking boxes pretty much provides all the alchemy you need.

Can you use your alchemy skill/perks to poison things, heal, frenzy, fortify, whatever and live off the land? Of course- and it is very valid. Do you need to use alchemy? - No all potions are duplicated/common/powerful/given to you in mass quantities. - This is my beef with alchemy and why I modded potions to be rare in my games.

Thanks for having a disagreement with me like an advlt. Someone named "ja-rule" ? just emailed me concerning this thread and called me a muslim (my name i guess) and then threw a bunch of insults / slurs my way... kids these days.

Udey
27 irish/french
USMC Sgt UIUC student.

I love Alchemy from a pure fun-having perspective, but have found that damage does not scale well, especially since you only get 1-2 hits per poison. On my assassin, I prefer to eschew Alchemy to keep my level low, making my backstabs relatively stronger.

I see "alchemy from a best point of view".I'll probably have to agree with that,but it sure is fun for an archer,I guess less usefull for a backstabing player.
Would any of the other stealth perks on the left side of the tree be usefull for a stealth archer?
I allready have muffled movement and since I'm rping no magick for this character does going past muffled movement make any sence.
I will remember this discusion for when I make a dual wielding character.

Oh and Udey I'm more than happy to dissagree with you

I would say - you probably DO want to take the left side of the stealth tree if you are an archer. Reason being: The whole argument is that illusion spells can replace that side- BUT - since you want to use a bow all the time, that means you will have to keep putting away your method of offense (bow) to reactivate/rebuff/recast whatever you need to do. In that situation I think having a constant static effect would be better. Keep your bow out.

I say the same thing concerning 2-handers and restoration.

@Angry Orc If you read my posts throughout this thread, you'll see why I believe the left side is not useful for any character.

I promised I wouldn't argue my opinions in here anymore, so if you have any arguments please take it to PM.

If you don't want to argue them here that's fine, but don't worry about me getting bent out of shape if this thread goes off-topic. I've never cared about that and don't understand why people get upset about it.

Well, this is what I was talking about. I'll get this reported right away.
As for you super-genius ja-rule. My facebook is the same name as what you emailed (kids should be smarter I would think) check for yourself.
Anyways, lets get this reported. I won't be responding to your teenage-angst anymore. I suggest a new hobby, this one is making you angry.

"Land of milk and honey"? He's such an idiot he's got his ethnic groups mixed up - mortal enemy groups at that.

Edit:
I'm not going to bother reading it, but I suspect in order to be convicted under the "Stolen Valor Act" you would have to injure someone or gain something of monetary value for it to be an offense.

Kids these days.

Closed for review.

OK, a number of posts have gone away, back on topic please.

What do you mean putting my method of offense away? since I won't be casting spells and you can still drink a potion without having to put your bow away.
And I still dissagree with you at least a little bit about alchemy.Mostly because you say you can find the same potions and poisons.
I just crafted a paralyze poison that also damages health,I have never found a poison that can do both.
Also invisibilty potions that restore health I have never found.

Thanks for not locking it permanently because of that ass.

I forgot about the funky, multi-potions.

Yes, it is true you will not find combined effects (like invisibility and health) but when you are paused and in the menu there is no difference between that and chugging both a health pot and then an invisibility pot. (multiple effect potions are not different from just chugging stock potions with one effect each- since there is no limit on how many we can chug at once - another issue I have.)

My call on poisons will depend on your character. Yes once again stock poisons will not combine damage with paralysis- I argue as a thief (even as a bow user) with just a bit of smithing- you can get the damage to start 1 or 2 shotting things. If you are doing that- then bothering to pause- poison your arrrow- and then shoot each time is questionable. If not- then alchemy certainly has its place here - but the former is very very easy to do, and paralysis alone is generally a death sentence. I believe I have seen paralyze for 12 second potions in the shops, but even my unperked-no-skill-ass can craft one for 4-6 seconds with a couple rings on.

- For the first part- since page 2 there has been discussion about spells replacing the left side of the sneak tree. Since you just said you aren't using spells, then you will want the left side of sneak tree perks.

Here here!

...but wouldn't pots that weigh 0.5 start to add up on a character that doesn't put a lot into Stamina? I generally put quite a bit into Stamina because I'm a pack rat, but I know a lot of people think Stamina is worthless (see that one other thread ).

I was in that other thread- it is garbage
That guy thinks the game starts at level 30-50 and that is when he wants to "start" doing quests, unless you like stomping the game at huge levels with no challenege his opinions don't apply. I think the game starts at level 1.

True- potions will add up weight- No denying. By counterargument, would you carry less alchemy junk if you didn't have any skill?

Yeah I to have that issue with the unlimited potions you can chug at one time.
Creating those multi effect potions is a carry over from being a long time alchemist in oblivion.
Allright before I start perking the left side of the sneak tree I still have more imprtant perks to get,mainly archery and alchemy.
Yeah I'm still sold on alchemy,thats part of the rp for this character.

When I played oblivion I set out to do the main quest without ever casting a spell,only useing alchemy.
I managed it without dying once,that was quite a feet I think.
I intend to do something similar in this game probably not without dying though.

Thanks for the friendly discusion and the advice.