[Alada Vaginah]

How do you define a GOOD TES game?

The same way you define a GOOD Mario, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Fallout, Need for Speed or Tetris title.

The standard that was set in prior games in the series. Once the "benchmark" has been made in a series everything is based and compared off of that. A game is a series because it has consistences, it builds off prior story, mechanics, flow, gameplay or feel.

What does Skyrim lack that other TES games don't?

To name a few? Shorter guild quest lines. Less weight in choices like race, weapons, etc. No spellcrafting. No disposition with NPCs. A World that doesn't recognize what you have done in it.

[Kathryn Medows]

That basicly describes any game you play isn't it?

Some yes, most no.

lol!

seriously? that's how you define this spectacular genre we all like?

talk about a slap in my rpg-lovin face.

Lawlercoaster yes.

My point is that few seems to agree on what a RPG actually is, most of all the actual developers of the games, and also that it's time for the genre to move on. And yes, I wouldn't mind if stats/perks/levels and stuff like that was tossed in the ditch.

If a RPG is defined by being a character development and inventory management game, then we're right back at the "Black Ops is a RPG" argument.
If it's defined by having a flimsy story that only gives you the illusion of choice tacked on to some stat-game, then DA2 is a RPG.

So what is it?

[Andy durkan]

Because we're actually sitting in a room together, in a circle and...

Oh, I mean... I think these threads, particularly the later half of the first and the early half of the second produced a lot of interesting ideas and clarifications. This is important for several reasons.

1)For those of us who don't appreciate the direction of the Elder Scrolls series this helps us put our thoughts down, hone are arguments against people who disagree, and hopefully come off stronger because of it. I know the other people in these threads have influenced my arguments for the better. Hopefully I've done the same for other people's arguments, both for and against my side.

2)There are also people who don't have an opinion, or are uninformed about the argument. They take it for granted "Well of course Skyrim is an RPG, everyone says it is. It sold really well, so it's definitely a great TES game". Hopefully by reading these threads it will challenge their previous realities and make them actually think about it, and persuade them to one camp or the other. As I said in one of the earlier threads I don't go into these discussions to persuade the people arguing against me, I'm persuading the silent people who are watching and forming new opinions.

Then I will go ahead and toss in my opinion.

I believe Skyrim is very much an RPG. It has every characteristic of one, comparable to the old school DnD which is the father of every RPG we know today. We can be who we want, play how we want, do what we want. If that doesn't define Skyrim as an RPG, then what the hell is it? You may call it an action adventure, and I 100% agree. But that doesn't remove the RPG from the game. It is entirely possible to have an Action adventure RPG. Reckoning is a prime example. The game is pure action, and still an RPG. The way a game played doesn't define it as an RPG or not. Call of Duty isn't an RPG because you have everything predefined. Who you are, where you go, how you progress, everything.

Skyrim is plane and simply an RPG.

As for if it is a TES. This is probably the stupidest question. Beth made TES. They own it, and it is theirs to do with as they will. They define what TES is, not us. To claim that Skyrim is not a TES is like you comming to my house and saying my doorbell doesnt sound like the other doorbells in the area. To which I say "So [censored] what? Its my doorbell.". Same applies here. This is not yours or my franchise. Beth made Skyrim how they wanted, making it the next Elder Scrolls, whether you like it or not.

Writing is a factor in every game IMO

It is what makes a story and storytelling is pretty important in an rpg

Writing is a factor in every game, yes, but that's not limited to RPGs. Ideally we would want every game to have a great story regardless of what type of game it is.

[Jade Payton]

I feel there is a loss of role playing - RPG - due to the lack of dialogue options and the lack of quest branches. Everything seems very linear in that sense.

[lydia nekongo]

Then I will go ahead and toss in my opinion.

I believe Skyrim is very much an RPG. It has every characteristic of one, comparable to the old school DnD which is the father of every RPG we know today. We can be who we want, play how we want, do what we want. If that doesn't define Skyrim as an RPG, then what the hell is it? You may call it an action adventure, and I 100% agree. But that doesn't remove the RPG from the game. It is entirely possible to have an Action adventure RPG. Reckoning is a prime example. The game is pure action, and still an RPG. The way a game played doesn't define it as an RPG or not. Call of Duty isn't an RPG because you have everything predefined. Who you are, where you go, how you progress, everything.

Skyrim is plane and simply an RPG.

The problem is that Skyrim doesn't really let you play the role. You play yourself instead. This is what makes it a poor RPG. The physical coordination impaired will always have characters that are terrible at combat regardless of how well their role is supposed to be good at combat.

This is what the base of all RPG mechanics is.

[Horse gal smithe]

When I was first introduced to a role-playing game, I was told that I was to take a character, either my own creation or borrowed, and assume his role. I would be dropped into a world, and I was to approach the world and interact with the things in it as my character would. Within those guidelines, I was welcome to do whatever I wanted. The game would pose problems and put obstacles in my path, and I could set my own goals, and it would be my job to deal them any way I can, but always with respect to my character's mindset and abilities.

Skyrim offers a good mix of ways to create a role's abilities and to exercise them . It offers good flexibility of accomodation for different character mindsets. It has a fun variety of problems for which a character's abilities are the solution, and for which a character's mindset is the solution, and for which your own observational skills and creativity are the solution. I can kill a draugr scourge without drawing a weapon, or casting a spell, or using a shout, and for a character who lacks in weapons skills, it's a nice thing to be able to do. I can help a kid out, burgle a home, go hunting, trade, raise money to buy a home, save the world, murder people for money, betray those who expect me to help them, take a side in a war, or none of the above or any of the above, and my character's effectiveness varies by what abilities and attributes I have bestowed on him. I like Skyrim as an RPG.

[Kelli Wolfe]

You've described points so broad that they could be used to describe some FPS shooters or pretty much any game with a story and characters in it.

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

[Amie Mccubbing]

I feel there is a loss of role playing - RPG - due to the lack of dialogue options and the lack of quest branches. Everything seems very linear in that sense.

[Ashley Clifft]

This is what makes it a poor RPG. The physical coordination impaired will always have characters that are terrible at combat regardless of how well their role is supposed to be good at combat.

But the issue is that Skyrim is an Action RPG, which is a subgenre of RPG characterized precisely on those things (live action and player reflexes as opposed to menu driven combat) that people have been complaining about Skyrim focusing on and pointing out as a reason why Skyrim is not a good plain old RPG. It is not trying to be that, neither were Oblivion or Morrowind.

[Multi Multi]

The problem is that Skyrim doesn't really let you play the role. You play yourself instead. This is what makes it a poor RPG. The physical coordination impaired will always have characters that are terrible at combat regardless of how well their role is supposed to be good at combat.

This is what the base of all RPG mechanics is.

In your opinion. I feel the opposite. Ive been able to RP far more and better then before.

[Jake Easom]

But the issue is that Skyrim is an Action RPG, which is a subgenre of RPG characterized precisely on those things (live action and player reflexes as opposed to menu driven combat) that people have been complaining about Skyrim focusing on and pointing out as a reason why Skyrim is not a good plain old RPG. It is not trying to be that, neither were Oblivion or Morrowind.

Personally I find the term to be an oxymoron used as a marketing buzzword when action-adventure already fulfilled the definition. Define roleplaying. Almost every single definition you get will be a variation of

"To assume or represent a role; act out"

You don't need the physical ability to assume you're performing the characters abilities, but it's implied via imagination that your character has those abilities.



I also think none of the TES games are RPGs though. Action-Adventurers with varying RPG elements thrown in. You can call them RPGs but they range from mediocre to poor in the actual genre.

[xemmybx]

I find it better to RP in New Vegas than Skyrim simply because I can forge my own way as a character through my decisions and dialogue better.

[Maya Maya]

I find it better to RP in New Vegas than Skyrim simply because I can forge my own way as a character through my decisions and dialogue better.

and, the reason is you actually get to decide with IN-GAME choices.

you don't have to mindplay or imagine your way through the game.

in fact, having just said that i suddenly am wondering about something big-time: do those who love the roleplaying freedom of skyrim enjoy the roleplaying of a game like new vegas that actually has real in-game choices that dermine the roleplay?

or, does it take away too much from their mindplay? lol. i wouldn't be surprised one bit if many of the people who HAVE to roleplay their characters don't even like a game that makes you roleplay a chacter through your actual in-game choices.

they would rather have mindplay freedom, rather than, real options and a character that develops because of your choices.

[james kite]

The same way you define a GOOD Mario, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Fallout, Need for Speed or Tetris title.

The standard that was set in prior games in the series. Once the "benchmark" has been made in a series everything is based and compared off of that. A game is a series because it has consistences, it builds off prior story, mechanics, flow, gameplay or feel.

Okay, I see. What TES game was good enough for you?

[Etta Hargrave]

I also think none of the TES games are RPGs though. Action-Adventurers with varying RPG elements thrown in. You can call them RPGs but they range from mediocre to poor in the actual genre.

This may be true, but I'd hope that you'd agree that Morrowind is at least more of an RPG than Skyrim, even if you think no TES game is that well grounded in RPG principles. I haven't played any TES game but the three most recent ones so I can't speak to the others of course. Certainly calling Morrowind an 'action adventure game', when whether or not your blows even connect is determined by the same dice rolls they do in any other classical RPG, is a little laughable. Especially through the contextual looking glass of comparing it to its successors, particularly Skyrim.

This is why when people say that 'Well when Morrowind came out, Daggerfall fans said it betrayed the series too' I always consider it a very weak argument. There's some space between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and perhaps there is also some space between Morrowind and traditional RPG. Still, it's a heck of a lot closer than Skyrim so what seemed like serious distinctions before suddenly become insignificant compared to the gulf between Skyrim and these traditional RPGs you talk about.

[Kit Marsden]

The argument that Skyrim has bad writing, and thus isn't an RPG, is like saying that X-Men Origins: Wolverine had bad writing, so thus it isn't a superhero movie.

Quality of writing doesn't determine if it's an RPG or not.

And the quality of writing is both A.) subjective and B.) not significantly worse (if worse at all) than Morrowind.

Depends, and the disagreement may be my fault for being unclear. I am not talking about the quality of the story. I am specifically talking about the lack of dialogue choices and NPC reaction. Just as removal of character development options eliminates RPG elements, so too does lack of dialogue options. If I am allowed to respond in only one way, resolve an issue in only one way, and that way is absolutely not in keeping with my character, it is jarring.

IMHO the lack of dialogue options is even more critical to the RP experience than character development. Character development in Skyrim is not so bad that I can't get around its limitations (moving in the wrong direction, but not there yet), but I don't know how to get around the dialogue options.

[sw1ss]

My point is that few seems to agree on what a RPG actually is, most of all the actual developers of the games, and also that it's time for the genre to move on. And yes, I wouldn't mind if stats/perks/levels and stuff like that was tossed in the ditch.

If a RPG is defined by being a character development and inventory management game, then we're right back at the "Black Ops is a RPG" argument.
If it's defined by having a flimsy story that only gives you the illusion of choice tacked on to some stat-game, then DA2 is a RPG.

So what is it?

First of all, bolded part is wrong. Developers, generally, know amazingly well what genre they are creating. Skyrim is a great example of a game moving from one genre to another and was designed to be that way. It is leaning more towards the Action-Adventure spectrum, like Zelda, than towards the RPG spectrum like a Final Fantasy or Dungeons & Dragons.

Is an RPG just limited to character development and inventory management? No, of course not because Resident Evil 5 has both of those aspects but is not an RPG.

An RPG is a collection of all of the moving pieces put together in a certain way with varying weights put into each part. RPGs are known, among the game industry genres (and within the mind of the designers) to have more in depth stories than say... First Person Shooters because RPGs require the story to hold the player's long term interest instead of holding on to the short term twitch reflex and instant gratification of multiplayer FPS games.

Halo's story will, more often than not, never be put on the same level of depth as the stories found in TES, Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger. It just won't. Even if you hold Halo up to other sci-fi genre games like Mass Effect the stories won't be on the same level of depth.

RPGs use a heavier stat based system, like D&D or Final Fantasy, because the gameplay is not based around the twitch motor skills of the player but rather the strategic mind. You're not defeating a group of Kobolds because of how well you masted the timing of pressing X, A, X, X, Quarter Circle Forward + B, you're defeating the group of Kobolds because of how well you have mapped out the battle and how well you have built your character for battle. Action RPGs change this and that is what they are designed to do, hence "action."

That is what sets RPGs out from other genres, save for Puzzle (usually), is the fact that they rely more on thought than twitch action, thus why they are more heavily stat based and why they usually have more intricate puzzles in them.

Skyrim is leaning more towards Action-Adventure because it is simply lessening the usage of stats, which cannot be denied.

Dragon Age II and Kingdom Hearts (arguably a much better example) are Action RPGs. DA II and KH still use stats to determine the damage you will do with your regular attacks, like an RPG does, but also molds it with the action genre because you can hit how often you want, dodge as well as you want, etc based on your motor skills as a player.

[butterfly]

Okay, I see. What TES game was good enough for you?

I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim.

I liked Oblivion much more than Skyrim.

[James Shaw]

This may be true, but I'd hope that you'd agree that Morrowind is at least more of an RPG than Skyrim, even if you think no TES game is that well grounded in RPG principles. I haven't played any TES game but the three most recent ones so I can't speak to the others of course. Certainly calling Morrowind an 'action adventure game', when whether or not your blows even connect is determined by the same dice rolls they do in any other classical RPG, is a little laughable. Especially through the contextual looking glass of comparing it to its successors, particularly Skyrim.

This is why when people say that 'Well when Morrowind came out, Daggerfall fans said it betrayed the series too' I always consider it a very weak argument. There's some space between Daggerfall and Morrowind, and perhaps there is also some space between Morrowind and traditional RPG. Still, it's a heck of a lot closer than Skyrim so what seemed like serious distinctions before suddenly become insignificant compared to the gulf between Skyrim and these traditional RPGs you talk about.

I do. Morrowind is action/adventure base with a lot of RPG rulesets piled into it. But someone who's better at action games will have a leg up over those that aren't. My coordination abilities as a player still trump the RPG mechanics in combat. Morrowind and Pre-Morrowind tends to penalize you a lot more for being unskilled statwise than the later titles, though. To be honest, I don't think I'd like morrowind as a full on RPG.(I tend to not like first-person RPGs. FP makes me want to control the character's actions)

What's the point in calling it anything other than an Action-Adventure game if that's what it is? Sales. You draw in a larger crowd by claiming your game is also "this". First Person RPGs can go the way of the dodos for all I care, but I'm sure there's still folks out there who like the genre.

[Chloe Mayo]

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Except no, you both are wrong.

My definition doesn't include games like, say, Call of Duty, because there is no character development in Call of Duty. You are either A.) playing a pre-determined character in a pre-determined story with a pre-determined outcome in which you have no control over, you simply play through the story, or B.) playing in an online competitive match where you are no different from anyone else playing.

There is no character development in a FPS like Call of Duty, except perhaps whatever character development is pre-written into the story.

Character development in Skyrim comes from improving your skills, via usage, and becoming a unique character different from another player's due to the choices you make, either in the course of the game or through the course of building your character. That is why Skyrim is an RPG, and Call of Duty can never be.

My definition is not broad. It is very specific in what it entails. It just happens to entail Skyrim, so you dismiss it, because you want to go against the grain.

[Vivien]

Except no, you both are wrong.

My definition doesn't include games like, say, Call of Duty, because there is no character development in Call of Duty. You are either A.) playing a pre-determined character in a pre-determined story with a pre-determined outcome in which you have no control over, you simply play through the story, or B.) playing in an online competitive match where you are no different from anyone else playing.

There is no character development in a FPS like Call of Duty, except perhaps whatever character development is pre-written into the story.

Character development in Skyrim comes from improving your skills, via usage, and becoming a unique character different from another player's due to the choices you make, either in the course of the game or through the course of building your character. That is why Skyrim is an RPG, and Call of Duty can never be.

My definition is not broad. It is very specific in what it entails. It just happens to entail Skyrim, so you dismiss it, because you want to go against the grain.

It entails Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl.

[yermom]

My avatar says it all Morrowind > Skyrim.

TES series definitely took an arrow to the knee.

[Stephanie Kemp]

and, the reason is you actually get to decide with IN-GAME choices.

you don't have to mindplay or imagine your way through the game.

in fact, having just said that i suddenly am wondering about something big-time: do those who love the roleplaying freedom of skyrim enjoy the roleplaying of a game like new vegas that actually has real in-game choices that dermine the roleplay?

or, does it take away too much from their mindplay? lol. i wouldn't be surprised one bit if many of the people who HAVE to roleplay their characters don't even like a game that makes you roleplay a chacter through your actual in-game choices.

they would rather have mindplay freedom, rather than, real options and a character that develops because of your choices.

I like those types of RPG's just fine. It's a different style of RPG, one that has its own focuses and strengths that are often different from what a game like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim offers at times, but those types of RPG's are just fine. As long as I am in control of the progression and development of the character, I will likely consider it an RPG, whether that be a free form style like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim that is less focused on storyline and consequence and more focused on the individual player character and how they navigate through a world, or whether that be a Fallout: New Vegas, or BioWare (Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age) style that is less focused on the individual character, but rather, the choice on how that character progresses through a storyline with choice and consequence.

Games like BioWare games or Fallout: New Vegas also rank high on my list of all time favorite games because of their strength of roleplay elements, even if they are handled differently than Elder Scrolls style roleplay.

[ShOrty]

In your opinion. I feel the opposite. Ive been able to RP far more and better then before.

I'm going to agree with you here. two decades of playing PC RPG and it feels great. tons of freedom. Differnt for some structured like KOTOR but still very much roleplaying. Maybe some folks need it spoon fed. I guess having played so many older games I don't expect perefection and feel I have to bring what the PC simply cannot yey do to the table. As it is I'm playing a 1/2 dozen differnt characters in round robin and they are very very distinct and different.

Only better role playing is in my twenty five year long running pen and paper HERO system campaign

[Sammi Jones]

Except no, you both are wrong.

My definition doesn't include games like, say, Final Fantasy VI, because there is no character development in Final Fantasy VI. You are playing a pre-determined character in a pre-determined story with a pre-determined outcome in which you have no control over, you simply play through the story.

There is no character development in a RPG like Final Fantasy VI, except perhaps whatever character development is pre-written into the story.

Character development in Skyrim comes from improving your skills, via usage, and becoming a unique character different from another player's due to the choices you make, either in the course of the game or through the course of building your character. That is why Skyrim is an RPG, and Final Fantasy VI can never be.

My definition is not broad. It is very specific in what it entails. It just happens to entail Skyrim, so you dismiss it, because you want to go against the grain.

You do realize that every single "point" of yours fits to the filled in game, which is arguably one of the greatest RPGs ever created, right?