[Amie Mccubbing]

The problem with taking away attributes is they tell you so much about your character.

If for example an NPC named Bob has a strength of '70' out of 100, and your character has a strength of '60' out of 100 you know that Bob is physically stronger than your character. You also know that if your character only has a personality of '40' out of 100 he's at best a bit below average with it comes to being personable. These little truths contained within the attribute system add a lot in the game in terms of giving you a basis for how and why you roleplay your character, how he should act. If his strength attribute is three times as high as his intelligence attribute then we know that he's simply a bit of a meat head. This system is given even more credibility in a game like Fallout, where if a certain attribute is at or above a certain number it will provide you with an additional choice in the dialogue, or an action your character can take which would be different from your last playthrough, where you didn't emphasize the attribute in question as much.

[M!KkI]

I would like to point out that just because time changes dosent make something irrevelant. Its the absence of it and the masses being used to its absence that makes irrevelent. Technology and science evolve from this.

Exactly. We are saying the same thing,even in a different way. Perhaps i'm too "cryptic" sometimes

Who cares about the -developers- playing the game? They build them. The users are the ones who pay for the game.....and there is still a very active community of players of Daggerfall to this day. Despite the hoops you have to jump through to =get= it to play on modern hardware and current OS choices.

Now think about that. There are still significant numbers of people playing a 1996 DOS era CRPG in 2012. Ultima can't say that, nor can Might & Magic. Kind of suggests that there might be something in the design formula of Daggerfall that really works, doesn't it?

It was a joke...and i've even put an emoticon and a subsequent explanation for that...

But i envy you,really.
You have all this time to spend on a forum ?

However...i try at least to please you...

- personally, i don't care about "modern hardware" or "graphics" -mine was only a pure "reflection" on our times related to "videogames industry" and other related things

-there is still an active community of WoW and The Sims players out there..you care even about that ?

And spare me the 'well, things change in the industry'. That does not mean the change is for the better. Shooters ran this path, you know; they went from personalized, 'you know that one in a second' kind of games to Call of Duty clones. They also led the way in bling over substance.....and a lot of developers crashed and burned as a result. Now we are seeing story element and actual roleplaying mechanics being added to shooters....which a lot of kiddies are heralding. Corporate-think is almost universally "NEWER! BRIGHTER! FLASHIER! GIMMICKIER!!" With the underlying attitude of 'You must give us your money. You have it. We want it. It's Our Right'. Which is nonsense. Spend money to make money, and keep the customer happy.

No one on this forum can tell me "what i have to do" -unless this is a moderator/administrator 'cause i've "break"the forum rules etc.

However,i try to respond to you :

- i've said that the changes are for the better ? where and when ?

- i have problems to understand what are you saying here..really..but i try to respond "logically" :
they've simplified the game 'cause this will bring more audience. If you want you can say that they have "ignored" the rules and all of that useless personal interpretations..free of doin' this of course

(Looks at the several hundred books, hard and soft cover, fiction and non, in the office, library, and scattered about the home) Everyone I truly know and associate with reads books. A lot of them write, as well. And you know? The only way anyone gets my hardcopy is if they pry it out of my cold, dead hands.....as opposed to Kindleoids, who can lose their entire libraries at a whim of Amazon. And as I am a geek, I have lots of modern toys that go with the ancient books. It isn't the medium that matters; it is the content. Which is the point that has been made over and over and over again. BGS was so puffed up on proving an end of lifespan game appliance could still cut it in the current hardware era they almost completely screwed the storytelling pooch. They didn't break the rules....they outright ignored them.

And that is the lamest argument I've ever heard. Where people have the most issues has nothing whatsoever to do with graphics technology; That is pretty much a non-issue atm. They chose to wrap their main efforts around a platform at the end of its lifespan and two or more generations out of date. The majority are talking about quest line scripting (or lack thereof), depending on an automated system to create interesting side quests (Daggerfall's quest parser may have been 'ancient' and FedEx-y, but at least the damned thing worked.....), and a fundamental disconnect between the player character and the world. A world supposedly on the literal brink of destruction, and yet not one leaf quivers. Not one hint of the power and threat.

For that last part - 'cause i still don't understand most of your "statements" above,sorry

perhaps you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying...or even worst you have too much hurry to respond that you've not even read carefully my previous post.

Take your time in the future,no one "chasing you" i will be glad to respond to you of course,but please, try to be more "clear"

[Dean Brown]

Thank you for recognizing the guy I was talking about, I couldn't remember his name. If Wolf is the exception to the rule then maybe I cut out of the game a bit too early... Perhaps I'll reinstall it and try a new game. I think the furthest I got was this part where some men (soldiers?) were defending a junkyard or something and I had the option to stand there and help them fight off a pretty large wave of attackers that, as far as I can tell keep coming for forever, though in reduced amounts after the 'quest' is completed.

The voice acting is rather simplistic(And http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rahAvCUk6xw buggy at times.), but the text itself is decent. CoP did a bit better at that IIRC.

[Soraya Davy]

I'd like to bring in a further topic about attribrutes and stats. Becuase they really do define who your character is. I'll talk about Oblivion in this case because I was playing recently before I had Skyrim. In Oblivion we have birthsigns and classes that you can create. For me classes were always a job and it could really define a backstory for your character. If you created a Night Spectral then you could create a story of how he became one, how long he's been working there, and in Oblivion you could almost make a story of how he got stuck in an Oblivion prison. Also birthsigns defined a character, imo. They should have never been made stones. I really loved the Emperor in Oblivion and each birthsign, "May the lover sweeten..." etc. It felt like the birthsigns really had an impact of who you were.

Class systems and attribute systems like Oblivion help create a role for your character.

I've been hearing about how people in Skyrim go from some warrior knight to some mage weilding wizard in Skyrim. And that always just seems so wrong. Like someone who has honed all his skills in the art of melee should not have the compacity to become a mage.

It's sort of this logical nonsense that sort of confuses my brain.

[JESSE]

I thought my Disclaimer on the first page was enough that almost everyone regarded Skyrim as an action Rpg, or an action game with PRPG elements, and yet STILL there are arguments over whether or not it is, like really. no point was being made, and a lot of good potential was wasted trying to defend personal views to others who don't give a hoot. at least try to state WHY its a -GOOD- RPG, oh wait, no one did. Confirms that it svcks as an RPG no?

I did,

Your choice to dismiss it and ignore it doesn't mean I didn't present valid reasons that make it a good RPG.

[Sophie Miller]

No, it might confirm something about reading comprehension, but not about Skyrim.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or in one of the previous two, but as I recall you asked folk to explain why Skyrim is a good RPG by their own definition, and to say how it differs from Call of Duty. I was looking forward to the answers too. I might throw in my two cents later if I'm not feeling too lazy.

I gave my response.

It was promptly ignored and dismissed.

[Undisclosed Desires]

Probably something like. Why do we consider Skyrim an RPG and CoD not an RPG when they use the same mechanics?

My response was that they don't use the same mechanics.

My response was completely ignored and not given any consideration.

[Guy Pearce]

Well, you can always look at the positive side..

i'm always "ignored" on this forum..or even worst,"attacked" on personal dislikes and perhaps only because i have a "thinking brain"

[Kahli St Dennis]

I'd like to bring in a further topic about attribrutes and stats. Becuase they really do define who your character is. I'll talk about Oblivion in this case because I was playing recently before I had Skyrim. In Oblivion we have birthsigns and classes that you can create. For me classes were always a job and it could really define a backstory for your character. If you created a Night Spectral then you could create a story of how he became one, how long he's been working there, and in Oblivion you could almost make a story of how he got stuck in an Oblivion prison. Also birthsigns defined a character, imo. They should have never been made stones. I really loved the Emperor in Oblivion and each birthsign, "May the lover sweeten..." etc. It felt like the birthsigns really had an impact of who you were.

Class systems and attribute systems like Oblivion help create a role for your character.

I've been hearing about how people in Skyrim go from some warrior knight to some mage weilding wizard in Skyrim. And that always just seems so wrong. Like someone who has honed all his skills in the art of melee should not have the compacity to become a mage.

It's sort of this logical nonsense that sort of confuses my brain.

You can't swap as effectively as you can in Morrowind or Oblivion. The true investment and strength comes from perks, which are limited in numbers, and if you invest in combat, then you won't be able to fully invest in magic.

As opposed to Morrowind or Oblivion, where no matter what your "class" skills are, you can still become 100% efficient in anything and everything else, thus rendering the class system of those games useless.

So what you are complaining about is actually Morrowind and Oblivion's class system, not Skyrim's.

[Nienna garcia]

You can't swap as effectively as you can in Morrowind or Oblivion. The true investment and strength comes from perks, which are limited in numbers, and if you invest in combat, then you won't be able to fully invest in magic.

As opposed to Morrowind or Oblivion, where no matter what your "class" skills are, you can still become 100% efficient in anything and everything else, thus rendering the class system of those games useless.

So what you are complaining about is actually Morrowind and Oblivion's class system, not Skyrim's.

Not true. See when I played Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm the type of person who sticks to my class and only continues the skills I set up in the very beginning.

In Skyrim it feels way to easy to blast points into anywhere. It's sad that my night assassin now needs to poor some perks into smithing because the game doesn't provide weapons that do more damage as I level up. Oh and enchantment lowers my battle damage. I had a glass bow that did 43 damage by itself, enchanted and it went down to 41. Erg.

[Kelly Osbourne Kelly]

I'm realizing only now that i risk to goin' mad reading this forum,really...

[Nienna garcia]

Not true. See when I played Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm the type of person who sticks to my class and only continues the skills I set up in the very beginning.

In Skyrim it feels way to easy to blast points into anywhere. It's sad that my night assassin now needs to poor some perks into smithing because the game doesn't provide weapons that do more damage as I level up. Oh and enchantment lowers my battle damage. I had a glass bow that did 43 damage by itself, enchanted and it went down to 41. Erg.

That's nice that you stick to your class - I do too - that doesn't change the fact that the game makes it incredibly easy to venture away from your chosen class skills, and even in Oblivion, the leveling system encourages you to do so. And even if you stay within your class, if you play the game long enough, you will eventually be forced into developing your skills and attributes outside of your class.

But in Skyrim, while it might feel like you can just blast points into anywhere - try actually doing it without any focus and see how effective your character is. Not very.

[Nicole Mark]

My response was that they don't use the same mechanics.

My response was completely ignored and not given any consideration.

3 posts of "Lalala I don't like your answers so I'm going to say you ignored me" is not helping.(Hint: Check back on your posts and notice that each one was responded to.) Just because people are posting criticism against your arguments does not mean they're ignoring it. Pretty much the opposite. They're calling you out on them.


Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl is a perfectly good RPG btw.

[Victoria Vasileva]

That's nice that you stick to your class - I do too - that doesn't change the fact that the game makes it incredibly easy to venture away from your chosen class skills, and even in Oblivion, the leveling system encourages you to do so. And even if you stay within your class, if you play the game long enough, you will eventually be forced into developing your skills and attributes outside of your class.

But in Skyrim, while it might feel like you can just blast points into anywhere - try actually doing it without any focus and see how effective your character is. Not very.

Let me see I got to the cap level in Oblivion with my Breton mage [which I prefer in Oblivion than in Skyrim] and never was forced into going into other skills. It just never happened. I proved to people playing a mage was viable in Oblivion and I also proved that sticking and even when you reach the last level to stay in your range of class. I never ventured out of that class.

And don't start me on the appearance of the Breton in Skyrim v.s. the ones in Oblivion.

[Emzy Baby!]

I did,

Your choice to dismiss it and ignore it doesn't mean I didn't present valid reasons that make it a good RPG.

No all you gave from thread two was that Char Customization/Development and that you felt from Morrow to Skyrim They defined RPGs, and from your words RPG's are defined by Char customization/Development...which I have repeatedly addressed with COD/MW3, but of course that doesn't fly with you even though your making descisions for you Char, YOU no one else, YOU. and in the context of your statements across thread two you didn't address the Question, you just beat your drums about How RPG Skyrim is...not whether or not it was a Good one / WHY its good.


And when you fall into the neat little Trap card about trying to say WHY its good, then we get into that little Stick about What makes a Good RPG and by your samples barring the TES series, pretty much any game is a GOOD RPG. I've giving responses to most of your post, If I missed any sorry. but don't tell me I'm ignoring when your clearly sidestepping the Question.

again


What makes a Good RPG? I don't care if you think Skyrim is an RPG or not, I think it is as well, just a very Poor one of which if you're interested in finding out why (which you're probably not) can find them in the Preceding threads.

[Alexandra Ryan]

Perks under no circumstances can replace Attributes. Attributes define your character much more clearly then perks ever would. Skyrim's perk system does have freedom but in order to roleplay, you need to be imaginative instead of having numbers define your character. That's something Skyrim can't replicate.

[mimi_lys]

They aren't even variables, They are Static and do not change once acquired. at least Attributes and SPECIAL could be effected over the course of the game from missions, diseases, Quests, level ups, and even Combat.

[Latino HeaT]

Perks under no circumstances can replace Attributes. Attributes define your character much more clearly then perks ever would. Skyrim's perk system does have freedom but in order to roleplay, you need to be imaginative instead of having numbers define your character. That's something Skyrim can't replicate.

in a nutshell, you perfectly described the 2 most defining mistakes in skyrim.

well-said.

[Julie Ann]

Perks under no circumstances can replace Attributes. Attributes define your character much more clearly then perks ever would. Skyrim's perk system does have freedom but in order to roleplay, you need to be imaginative instead of having numbers define your character. That's something Skyrim can't replicate.

I don't really agree. Attributes are very abstract, at least in the TES implementation. The skills and perks are right there in the gameplay. Lack of attributes grants freedom to be imaginative in that department. I won't give up perks ever because I don't want to imagine gameplay elements.

edit: subjective ruleset discussion. It is in the context, another game might be different.

[Lizzie]

So we're still down to two aspects: writing and character development.

Character development you can argue about better or worse, but it does exist in every game. I am one of those who does not like the trend (still think Daggerfall had the best character creation system) but I won't say that it is gone. It just changes from game to game, sometimes for the better and often for the worse.

It's the writing that to me is more important and more disconcerting. It is also the writing that is most easily fixed. Skyrim is a lot of fun to play. If I disagree with some of the design choices they still do not come close to ruining the game for me. But the writing ...

[evelina c]

I don't really agree. Attributes are very abstract, at least in the TES implementation. The skills and perks are right there in the gameplay. Lack of attributes lets freedom to be imaginative in that department. I won't give up perks ever because I don't want to imagine gameplay elements.

edit: subjective ruleset discussion.

lol!

attributes are the very essence of specificity. they control and govern every aspect of humans and player characters. perks are great implementations and help to continue fleshing out the pc, but, without attributes you have to use your mind and imagination even more.

[Elea Rossi]

"Skyrim" is very stat heavy. You have stats. Your armour has stats. Your weapons have stats. Your enemies have stats. Your friends have stats. Your spells have stats. The plants have stats. The game itself is a Computer Program and itself is founded on mathematics and statistics so saying the game is light on stats doesn't really hold any water.

I'm sorry but Skyrim is not stat heavy, it's just not.

Your three main stats are finite resources in the way of Magicka, Health and Stamina.

You have 0 Strength, 0 Wisdom, 0 Luck, etc, etc.

Every other stat in the game is purely ability or item based and is limited to a small pool of Damage and Armor.

Wisdom/Intelligence, for example, is non-existent. For in other RPGs (perhaps even other TES games, can't remember), WIS/INT were tied to all magic. Skyrim however breaks everything into Skill Trees thus removing the possibility of a Destruction Mage with a high WIS/INT to just naturally have "better" Conjuration because they are naturally adapt to magic. Not to mention STR, because One-Handed and Two-Handed don't share it, when in other games they would, which has been consistent throughout most (if not all) RPGs.

"The game itself is a computer program?" No way, really?

It's founded on math and stats? No way, really?

Neither of those things hardly equate to anything relevant, because Tetris is a computer program, it is founded on math and stats, but the game itself is not stat heavy in terms of gameplay.

Skyrim is not stat heavy.

[Bones47]

No all you gave from thread two was that Char Customization/Development and that you felt from Morrow to Skyrim They defined RPGs, and from your words RPG's are defined by Char customization/Development...which I have repeatedly addressed with COD/MW3, but of course that doesn't fly with you even though your making descisions for you Char, YOU no one else, YOU. and in the context of your statements across thread two you didn't address the Question, you just beat your drums about How RPG Skyrim is...not whether or not it was a Good one / WHY its good.


And when you fall into the neat little Trap card about trying to say WHY its good, then we get into that little Stick about What makes a Good RPG and by your samples barring the TES series, pretty much any game is a GOOD RPG. I've giving responses to most of your post, If I missed any sorry. but don't tell me I'm ignoring when your clearly sidestepping the Question.

again


What makes a Good RPG? I don't care if you think Skyrim is an RPG or not, I think it is as well, just a very Poor one of which if you're interested in finding out why (which you're probably not) can find them in the Preceding threads.

I responded to everything you just brought up in the last thread, and you proceeded to ignore it.

[Isabella X]

I responded to everything you just brought up in the last thread, and you proceeded to ignore it.

yeah...Thread two..which i just explained...in the very post you qouted..and you're still telling me I'm ignoring it, ok gg. nevermind then.

[Antony Holdsworth]

So we're still down to two aspects: writing and character development.

Character development you can argue about better or worse, but it does exist in every game. I am one of those who does not like the trend (still think Daggerfall had the best character creation system) but I won't say that it is gone. It just changes from game to game, sometimes for the better and often for the worse.

It's the writing that to me is more important and more disconcerting. It is also the writing that is most easily fixed. Skyrim is a lot of fun to play. If I disagree with some of the design choices they still do not come close to ruining the game for me. But the writing ...

The argument that Skyrim has bad writing, and thus isn't an RPG, is like saying that X-Men Origins: Wolverine had bad writing, so thus it isn't a superhero movie.

Quality of writing doesn't determine if it's an RPG or not.

And the quality of writing is both A.) subjective and B.) not significantly worse (if worse at all) than Morrowind.