I loved Morrowind it was an amazing game but it was not without its faults. It was not perfect but it had something that very few games had. It wasn't just Oblivion and Skyrim that disappointed when compared to that classic modern games in general can't hold a candle to it and I'll tell you why.

It wasn't all about graphics it was about story, lore and scene setting. The graphics were awful till modders got their hands on it (you can say that about any Bethesda game, they make great games with awful graphics it's kind of a trademark) but the gameworld was incredible to live in. You met characters who could give you the history of the world and explain everything in it and there was a LOT to explain. There were rival factions with deep backstories that you could lose yourself in completely without even touching the main quest. It was an experience as much as it was a game. So much text to read in the dialogues and the books everywhere such a chore except somehow back then it was not a chore it was a joy.

The only games that came close to it in terms of creating a real world (in my opinion, obviously before some [censored] points out that a thread with my name on it is my opinion) with believable characters and events were Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Planescape Torment. Neither of those games would last a second today and would probably be panned by all the critics, so would Morrowind. There were no voice-overs you had to read USING YOUR EYES an awful prospect for some people and as for digesting the information well to hell with that just give me a damn quest I am in a hurry to 'beat' this game and it's exactly that mindset that destroyed RPG's as we know them.

Skyrim is dumbed down because people are dumbed down. If people weren't so stupid Skryim wouldn't be either. If people weren't in such a hurry to 'beat' everything and boast about it on the internet Skyrim wouldn't be so vacuous and one dimensional and give you all the tools you need to do exactly that. If people weren't desperate to do everything in a hurry without actually playing and enjoying the game there would be no fast travel but the people get what the people want so there you have it.

There will never be another epic RPG because there is no market for such a thing anymore. That whole annoying 'thinking' nonsense is a thing of the past. That's why Bethesda can get away with cramming their games on to consoles to give people a quick fix because games no longer require story or ponderous thought they require nice graphics with an easy 'I won the game fast get me I am so leet' fix.

So next time you point out Morrowind is a crap game (usually without having even played it) be mindful that it's only crap by today's standards where a game really is no longer game it's a quick blast with pleasant eye candy and full-on bragging rights to impress your buddies.

I am not saying Skyrim is a bad game it is not in fact it is better than most games around at the moment I am simply saying that games have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator because people have. Stupid is the new black.

I think your post is a beautiful example of your own theory. Cheers!

Yeah everything was better in the old days.

Skyrim's just taken a different approach, it's taking a more modern approach away from statistics and attributes into a more skill based progression system. I think it works really well.

Depth in Morrowind between factions was really good, I agree. Dialogue was a lot longer too, but with voiced dialogue you simply cannot have that amount like in Morrowind. I wouldn't even call Morrowind dialogue deep to be honest, a hell of a lot of it was just generic waffle that was the same between multiple people. In addition to the non existent AI, it didn't really help with any kind of character depth for me.

And while mods can make it pretty, the animations are still atrocious (and where for the time), and the combat system is quite possibly the most frustrating and annoying system I've ever played in a game.

Morrowind was a good game for its time. But it's old, it's outdated, and has a lot of flaws too. This is coming from someone who's first ES game was Morrowind back in 2003. If it is your favourite game then that's fine, but it seems to have a kind of god status around here as being perfect. It was, and is, far from perfect.

Not meaning to nitpick, but OP Bethesda games don't have bad graphics. They have good graphics. However, some games may just not age well, or in the case of Skyrim, has beautiful graphics, but bad shadows and crappy looking hair.

I remember when i was a kid we used to RP with books and little plastic figures.
Damn you DM we were so close to level 30....

Well, Morrowind really was no depper with anything you mention except artwork, people have this memory that the story is some deep incredible thing. Gotta tell ya, i'm replaying and it has some charm, but nothing near what you are talking about IMO.

On one level I actually agree with you, but it simply has to do with the fact that now the demographic of these games is HUGE compared to what it used to be. Really only indie developers make games anymore that require the kind of effort and focus that some games used to, in my opinion of course. I think back to games like Ultima 7, no one would even play that if it were on the market today regardless of graphics because it was HARD, if you were stuck you bought a book or asked a friend, internet use was in it's very infancy, and there wasn't even a journal to track quests, I remember actually jotting mine down on a notepad.

What shocked me the most is people here in the forum saying that if I feel OP in this game and don't like it, I should nerf myself. It's not the game problem in their minds. It's me who try to use my head in developing my char that is ruining the game.

In the old days, you were good when you used your brain and had skill. Now, you have to make stupid mistakes in developing your char on purpose to make fighting enjoyable

Thanks, I do my best.


It has God status because it was written like a book it was true to its own rules no contradictions. It had extraordinary depth. I already said it wasn't perfect but it was, to sound cliched 'deep'. Deep is no longer hip. Gimme that quick fix man and I'll move on to the next game to 'beat'. WTF does it mean anyway beating a game, something that's supposed to be savoured and enjoyed. Not dissing you at all I respect your points I just think modern games say more about the people who play them than the games themselves have to say which is usually nothing at all.


Sorry, can't agree. Bethesda always tried to cater for every machine setup and the graphics were always behind the times. They now make games on console so unless you have a PC and will wait for a modder to make Skyrim for example 'modern' you're stuck with a game that looks five years out of date. That doesn't bother me really but their graphics out of the box have always blowed chunks.

I have seen the same sort of argument in other art forms as well, most notably film where people say "they don't make films like that anymore" and someone who loved those films eventually does. Independent studios, in film, and here, game design, do take advantage of what the bigger studios lack, and can provide what the smaller demographic yearns for.

Just don't give up hope I say, these things do move in cycles.

yeah, its definitely been dumbed down.

stop reading when you said puting the game on consoles was some kind of crime aganst good games (heads up, morrowind [oh the all mighty, the greatest thing ever in existance /sarcasm] was on console too). before that though op had a point, there is not enough story (and who could brag about beating a game with so little in the way of inticing quests?)

When Morrowind came out one of the main criticisms I remember coming from game reviewers was that it required an above-current standards rig to properly play it, and that's exactly how I remember it as well....Same with Oblivion, if you did not have a pretty decent rig when it was released, you'd be playing 800 x 600 and turning off aa.

ugh, in all honesty the less of these threads we have, including the polar opposite (people saying its not or trying to make a counter argument to the op) the better. imo

I don't agree that people's preferences and the general state of affairs with what people play these days are the Cause, BETH made the game the way they did, "casuals" didn't make the game and Beth didn't need to cater to anyone. they could have made a game with much of what people loved about the old games but they didn't WHY try to shape a game for a phantom yet to be tapped audience with no idea what they want in a TES game, MUCH LESS what a TES game is I feel is a Poor direction to take.

I disagree... I played morrowind it was a great game, Ill agree with you that the story had more depth. But I mean come on in terms of graphics, even combat it was a step in the right direction. Half u guys seem to forget 60% of morrowind was spent in that horid menu and that messy thing they called a journal...

OP, I approve of your post.

I like oblivion and skyrim. Skyrim better.

Cheers

You're talking to someone who played RPG's on console before Morrowind ever existed. These days with high expectancy on graphics and full voice overs to design a game on console means you're extremely limited in what you can eventually put out but it really does not matter anymore content is no longer king. That was my initial point.


When Morrowind came out people wondered why it needed such a powerful machine for low res textures. I personally wondered why every single character in the game was a hunchback both males and females. Exactly the same complaints when Oblivion came out. It looked cheap and tacky and all the chars had hunchbacks. Someone at Beth is a big Hunchback of Notre Dame fan.

I think there is a market for that , even on consoles . It's true it probably wouldn't sell as well though .
i would adopt another posture of thought , i think that it's not to the public to raise the standards , but to the developpers .

Look at Morrowind , at the time it came out , it was the first game in full 3D that was so ambitious in term of content (number of objects , NPC , books , choices quests etc ) that still today , 10 years later , has not been beaten , just equalled by Skyrim.Morrowind was that good because it brought something New , and it brought more and better than other games . This is what raised the standard and created expectation in the minds of the public

Now take the Grand Theft Auto series , those guys did such an amazing job that 10 years later any game of the serie is still a reference for millions of gamers , this in turn has created a new standard and style of game . Again , it's the developpers that raised the standard , for the good of the video games world and evolution

It's up to the Devs to innovate and raise the standards , if Skyrim has been streamlined and given less attention to RPG content than action/dungeon content , it was the designer choice based on profit considerations , we can't blame them , Bethesda in 2009 was a succesful company with past success through Morrowind/Oblivion , they had expectations to grow and make the next one outsell the previous , so they didn't want to change their "winning formula" much , whereas back in the early 2000's , they were trying to set their mark with something fresh and more ambitious , they were ready to take risks .

What we can hope for is that in the future Bethesda or other Devs will try to please that part of the market who would like a open world game but with more depth/RPG content and emphasis on story and choices . I think that there is a large public for that sort of games and if Skyrim doesn't completely fit the bill for that style , other devs may try to do it cause now the industry is much larger than 10 years ago , it overtook cinema and hollywood in term of profits

"Skyrim is dumbed down because people are dumbed down."
Totally agree. The other day my friend was talking to me about his playing experience, and how he had pretty much done everything in the first 60 hours. While he was impressed by the fact he could put that many hours in to one game at all, he was disappointed that he had finished everything "BIG" there was to do in the game since he did the DB TG Companions COW the Stormcloks and the main quest. And without him giving me any more details i called him out on using fast traveling all the time, Breaking the smiting system and becoming a god early on, doing the same with enchanting, and running through the different story lines with one character and not doing any sort of Role Playing. I was 100% correct.

"There will never be another epic RPG because there is no market for such a thing anymore."
I disagree with that, However i don't think it will be another one on this console generation (i hope its not just wishful thinking.) When Bethesda has the ability to fit the amount of Content (auido takes up ALOT of memory) I think there is a strong possibility that they could come to a middle ground where it makes the "dumbed down" people happy, and has the deep content RPGers love." The next generation of consoles should allow you to do this if the step up is anything like the jump from Xbox/PS@ to 36- and Ps3

So next time you point out Morrowind is a crap game (usually without having even played it) be mindful that it's only crap by today's standards where a game really is no longer game it's a quick blast with pleasant eye candy and full-on bragging rights to impress your buddies.
Morrowind was AMAZING, i still get goose bumps when i here the theme song. and i say that even though i HATED all the reading you had to do. and i hated the stupid combat system.

I am not saying Skyrim is a bad game it is not in fact it is better than most games around at the moment I am simply saying that games have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator because people have. Stupid is the new black.

Skyrim is also amazing and most people who don't like it don't RP. Yea its not as deep as Morowind Lore wise and quest wise, but i find RPing in skyrim is even more fun than in Morrowind since its all up to your imagination and the world they created in Skyrim can not be matched by any game world i have personally experienced.

Your subject line was written incorrectly, and I would say this to anyone who posted the subject line in a similar theme. Change "the point" to "my point" and the read would have been apropos, for you. Simply put, anything you went on to say after your header, are simply your desires and tastes in games. I have my own tastes, and Skyrim doesn't really fit them. Also, you are wrong by making a claim that that today's critics (and I don't mean the 4???n invaders) would pan Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 as well as Planescape: Torment. In my taste, I wouldn't mention any TES game in the same breath as those, except maybe for Daggerfall, but that is "my" point.

I don't think this is true. The thing is that the world is changing, like you said, and that games change with them, but that does not mean that it is "dumbed down"(or that people are "dumbed down" for that matter). There are simply different expectations than it was before, like voice acting which takes a lot of space when stored.

As for the dept of Morrowind, I disagree. I have played it extensively and I do not see it. Yes, it's a fun and longlasting game which deserves mentioning on most "Best Games Ever Made"-lists, at least as long as it is seen from its time, but it is far from complex when you are past the "the menues are a bit confusing" part.
Only in very few instances do guilds interact, and when they do it usually does not have any consequence(with the exception of maybe 3 or so instances).
The character development does not offer unique character builds unless you purposely stop at a specific number in an attribute, since there is no difference in a warrior with 100 in destruction and a mage with 100 in destruction.
Most quests are either: Find-location-and-kill-him/her, fetch-x-item-for-me or solve-this-by-aksing-someone-about-something-then-go-fetch-some-stuff-and-report-back or escort-me-to-x-location just with different items, persons, theme etc. However, the time it takes to find the clues, place etc. makes it feel less repetative.
Most NPCs have loads of dialoge, but 90% is recycled topics like "my trade", "little secret", "little advice", "X race" or "x faction" made to be clutter topics like "rumors" and "x city" in OB. Only a small percentage of non-quest topics are unique for certain NPCs, like Duke Vedam Dren's "my trade". To have each NPC being a small encyclopedia os simply not possible today with voiceacting, but even so most OB NPCs had unique dialoge about their city.
I also never felt that the residents of Vvardenfell recognised what I had done, unless they were affected by some scripted event(I can remember one) or in the faction I had completed in which case they would greet me with my title. I'm not saying OB did this perfectly either, nor did Skyrim, but I feel OB did this better than the others.
In short: MW was a great game, but far from as complex as people make it sound.

As for it never being made another "epic RPG" I also disagree. In my optionion Skyrim is an epic RPG, with decent character development, unique character builds only matched by Daggerfall of the ES main games and a living world which I can immerse myself. IMO DA:O is also an epic RPG, though it is made to be more semi-linear than TES, and have better character development when it come to interracting with the world and party.

I personally believe that many "old school" gamers feel uncomfortable with the fact that gaming is becoming "main-stream" and commonplace and try to distance themselves from anything "new" in gaming, even though they are probably just as entertained as the "rookie" gamers.
That, and that nostalgia is a commonplace eyewear. Example: I think that Skyrim from a design and development viewpoint are far above both MW and OB, but I will rank both MW and OB equal because of this, even with their horrible attribute system and lack of character-uniqueness.

Mankind has jump the shark. Has been doing It since fire.

Also, post above me quoted for great truth and justice. It seems like people would like to go back to Daggerfall without really realising what It was like.

When comparing Morrowind with Skyrim , one must not forget the latter came out 10 years later . Morrowind should be compared with the game of its era , the fact that people still talk about it today means how much innovative and a quality game it was at the time it went out . I'm not sure people will talk of Skyrim in 10 years , although i hope so (with expansions )

The question is in which ways Skyrim is an improvement over Morrowind in term of RPG content (number of items , npc , unique quests , depth of the lore , questlines , factions etc ) , and to what extent , given that computers and consoles have more than quadrupled in power and memory .

IMHO , it is especially an improvement in term of visuals and action gameplay and fluidity , they also have improved the credibility of the world with NPC having routines and dungeons having much better art design , these elements are important , but not RPG-content related .

The nostalgia argument is beside the point , there are objective ways to look at , to assess what has been lost and what has been gained in 10 years , between the two games IMHO

Not me. I find the game-play horribly user-unfriendly and it has a major lack of unique or non-random quests, but I will give it credit for actually having unique character builds/classes with its wide array of custom weaknesses and advantages which were balanced by the character creator so you couldn't have all the good stuff and none of the bad, and that the closer to "overpowered" you were the slower skills increased and closer to "underpowered" the faster they increased. And the fact that you were given only a few attribute points each level(4-6 IIRC) which you had to put where you felt it was most needed.