Yeah I pretty much agree. I actually like skyrim though and they did remove some things but I think they might have done it for reasons other then to dumb it down. That being said trying to sell a game to a larger audience means including more stupid people and keeping them interested so you do need to dumb down some.

But you can have New Vegas.

idk why Morrowind players always point out the positives of Morrowind and not the negatives and always point out the negatives of Skyrim and not its positives.

Because they miss the positives of Morrowind and don't like the negatives of Skyrim? It's not like we're going to see a big push for Bethesda to bring back item repair or Horse Armor (though I do admit, given how easily horses die, it is tempting to want to protect that 500 GP investment)

While true, what OldMan is pointing out is the intellectual dishonesty of certain people.

Yeah, Skyrim had a more in-depth character creation than Morrowinds(which you could only choose a face and a hairstyle).

Translation: "I don't like, so therefor it is devoid of any worth whatsoever".

Oh blow it out of your [censored].

There are these things called "variety", "taste", "difference of opinion", and "change". Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it svcks. I can't believe you're comparing the changing trends of an industry (which has grown in ways more than just fan base) to an alleged devolution of an entire society that spans millions and millions of people.

This isn't regression, or a lack of taste, it's change. Change happens, it is only way for anything to progress. Now whether if the Elder Scrolls Series or society (lol) getting worse or better, cannot be determined at a moment's notice. That's for the future to decide. I'm not disagreeing with you that there is a dearth of intellectual stimulation in mainstream culture (which is a shame I completely agree) but that's our society. That's how we made it. If you don't like it, either adapt or attempt to change it instead of bemoaning about it.

Skyrim also adds Mining, Smithing, Cooking, Dual Wielding and Dragon Shouts

In the old days I had time to sit down with graph paper and make my own maps [before games had a map function]. Journal .. humbug .. you wrote down anything worth knowing. If you don't write it down then it's not worth knowing. If I didn't know where a certain mine or cave was and had a general location "like the great plains" I'd just walk / search the ENTIRE great planes square by square until I found what I needed.

However it's not the old days now. Once I've travelled between Riften & Solitude 5 or 10 times a lot of the mystery is gone. I just want to get to where I need to go and do what I need to do to progress the plot [once I've explored an area deeply enough for me]. Therefore maps, fast travel, and even compasses for quests are great time savers so I can do what I want to do instead of slog through another long walk between remote cities on the other end of the game world.

The good thing is a lot of these time saves are optional. You don't have to use Journals, Maps, Compasses for quests, Fast Travel, etc.

So what you're saying is change is progress and can not be seen as a regression because it is largely accepted by a populace that pretty much takes whatever modern culture throws at them without complaint?

You've already accepted intellectual stimulation is rock bottom of priorities in entertainment these days does that mean with your previous comments you were 'just blowing out of your ass'? People are entitled to 'bemoan' a situation which they see as regression even if you don't. It's a discussion forum and as long as we're discussing Skyrim here we're not breaking any rules. There's no law that says we must be changing the world for the better in some way or we are not entitled to comment or let's face it the place would be pretty much empty.

I don't think Skyrim's changes have to do with today's audience being dumber. I've played all the Elder Scrolls games, and have played Role playing games since Tunnel of Doom on the TI-99-4A. I'm not any dumber since I started playing RPG's. I've actually gotten quite a bit smarter.

Gaming has gotten more popular, so there is a much larger audience, with a broader expectation level. But that is irrelevant to the changes in Skyrim. Bethesda did not "dumb down" the game to appeal to casual gamers, or gamers wanting a quick-fix gaming experience. The game still has hundreds of hours of content.

Is it as "deep" an experience as Morrowind? That is a matter of opinion. I believe it is, just in a different manner. I feel enveloped in lore when I play the game. Not just from people speaking, but from the books, from the quests, from the environment. Morrowind appears deeper because people spit out paragraphs of text whenever you speak to them. Text was a crutch, it made up for what technology could not provide. It's a matter of what the platform can provide, and how good the company is at delivering content using that platform.

Skyrim provides another deep dive experience into the world of the Elder Scrolls. It's just the interface and method of presentation that has changed.

My experience with game series over the decades is that most tend to be exercises in steps foreward and steps back. Which is part of why a lot of game companies trend towards not altering things too much between games because for them the downsides of changing can outweigh the upsides. Everything from the Japanese rpg industry to many sports game industries have suffered from this. Sometimes companies are lucky enough to have a string of games in a series that continually go in a positive direct (FF1-FF7) before falling off. But rarely if ever is there the series that only moves up.

Skyrim strikes me as fitting into the general catagory of some steps foreward, some back.

The earlier TES games were designed for a niche audience. They targeted us with precision and got us. As it turned out, a fairly narrow niche. Then they decided they wanted a larger audience, and started using a spread shot to get as many people as they could. We, the original fans, had been hoping they would improve on RPG elements in the games, instead, they weakened them and are now making games that appeal to a wider audience, so that now the game is neither fish nor fowl. So far it's working for them, but I don't know how much more generalizing the games can take before they become so bland that nobody will be interested. As it is, I am happy that I have it for PC, and modders can fix much of what I don't like, though sadly, not all.

Yup. Like it or not, media is played by the demands of the populace. Their pursestrings are tugged and pulled by what the people want. The gaming industry is an industry sadly, not an art form. It can't sustain itself properly by adhering to a nitche market for every game they release, or forever. Personally, I think it's people who should become more cultured and not society that should become more shallow, but I don't control what people think or do.

Thing is though, that's how you percieve intellectual stimulation and regression. Keyword being you; Pronoun. Second person singular or plural. I don't dismiss the fact that after I play a bit, my brain starts feeling like a marshmallow now and then. However, I don't play Skyrim for the depth. Every Elder Scrolls game I play, I played it for the lore, the character development, and the ability to become who I want in a world that's different from our own; which has always been Bethesda' sale's pitch. Bone crushing combat and convoluted RPG mechanics are secondary. Bethesda could make a Morrowind/Daggerfall 2.0 or an Oblivion 2.0 for all I care so long as I can immerse myself.

And aye, you do have the right to complain, but that's not going to help you or anyone else. If you want a more intellectually satisfying game, then try to convince Bethesda in doing so or work with your wallet, and buy another RPG genre. I don't like were this market is going either to be honest, but I do have a choice in what I buy.

Exactly. I'm not saying Skyrim is "dumber" than Morrowind or Oblivion I'm just saying that to me they felt better. I might be one of those persons from the niche market that loves to spend points on Strength, Agility, Speed and stuff but it doesn't have to be that complicated just the perk system from the Fallout series combined with the level-by-using system from TES might satisfy my needs

Skyrim is a beautiful piece of work imo but there's always a but and that especially the character development feels too shallow for me but that's of course subjective. I just got the feeling that for me TES is going in the wrong direction just as WoW did after Burning Crusade and I have to leave the TES universe and find something new.

I'm finding it hilarious that you can design a genre a RPG to garner a wider Audience, has anyone stop and thought what in any way does that make sense? PLEASE think about that Statement


Garnering a Wider Audience to a particular Genre, instead of working the game the way you want it and having them come.


remember the phrase if you build it, they will come? isn't it a kind of fallacy to build for something you have no idea about instead of building it the way you want and them coming? does one HONESTLY not see the money signs in "we want to Garner a wider audience" make the blast game the way you want, and stomp making non sensical compromises for a people who have no idea what your game entails and there of have no idea what they want....

I never played that game because I did not have a PC back in the day, but I bought it couple days ago from GOG.com for like $4 along with the Krondor ones and other stuff from that time period. I got into RPG's with Fallout and BG so I can understand what the OP is saying. Fallout: NV actually took a step toward more intellectual content, but it will take baby steps before the new generation of gamers are ready for the golden oldies.

I'm pretty happy with the direction that Skyrim is going, gameplay is better then Oblivion, no more horrible over use of Level Scaling, no more screwing with the system just to be able to play the game, no more wasting time leveling up useless skills just so I can get a +5 on random stat, characters are now characters instead of Jack Of All Trades, game is less buggy, etc.

Post limit.