*sigh* No stuff, sherlock. I have had my rear end handed to me on a platter once, posting on the CSF there.... when I said "Blizzard would NEVER" do a particular thing. Not two days later.... Blizzard DID IT.

Talk about eating my hat. Well, keyboard....

1) Good for you.
2) What would that achieve? Knocking out one more ally against the Thalmor is stupid.
3) Why would the other Dragons follow Paarth? All Dragons want to destroy, what would they possibly gain from becoming pacifists?
4) Again why would the Dragons want this? They stand to achieve NOTHING from allying with the Nords.
5) No comment for this.
6) Would love for this to happen.

This is all IMO & I just hope Beth never put the option for any of these (save for #6) events to happen.

Skyrim does not imply anything regarding canon. Only that there is a Dragonborn and the bad guys (dragons) die.
In my Skyrim Stormies have never won, Emperor died only once in a save I since abandoned, one of my characters had the Wuuthgard and sold it to a random merchant. Not many pro-Stormcloak Nords around because they are dead. (and there weren't many to begin with - the whole point of civil wars is that you have two or more sides without majority settling things with violence)

Pisto.... all that's true of my games too. Not to mention hundreds of others. Problem is.... Beth is going to decide what IS canon. And likely, some of us aren't going to like it....

Guess what, in Oblivion some of my characters never went to the SI, some never joined the DB, and some never joined the TG yet Sheogorath says my character did. Bethesda isn't Biofail with its "THERE IS NO CANON EXCEPT THERE IS LOLZTROLOLOL" BS, so I would expect Bethesda to choose a winner since just leaving it up in the air would disappoint lots of people.

According to Justinia Auctor, a historian from the early Fifth Era:

"Very few records survive from the tumultous years of the early Fourth Era in the wake of the demise of the Septim Dynasty. This is particularly true of Skyrim, where what few documents that have survived are filled with superstitious nonsense: apocalyptic dragon-gods, heroes with dragon blood, flying horses, mammoths riding other mammoths, and what not. And although we know that there was a vicious civil war between the Nords loyal to the Empire and those calling themselves the Stormcloaks, the recounting of those events is so interwoven with legend and hagiography that few erudite historians give them much credence. One ridiculous report claims that Ulfric Stormcloak slew the High King of Skyrim by yelling at him. Another silly tale suggests the entire war once ground to a halt, all so that a nameless hero could catch a dragon with a giant wooden bear trap. Nords are, of course, prone to exagerrate and incorporate elements from old myths in their historiography. Even who won the civil war is shrouded in mystery. All that is clear is that Skyrim was united just in time to play a pivotal role in the outbreak of the Second Great War with the Thalmor that engulfed every corner of Tamriel."

But I don't see how that means Stormcloak victory will be canon. I was just pointing out that just because something MAY happen in the game it doesnt mean it will inherently be that way. Oblivion was different because it did not have such a multi-ending quest line, and that's what we are discussing here.

This is probably what is going to end up happening or something like that. although it seems (to me anyway) that the smartest thing would have been having tullius and ulfrick and all the top ranking officers (except the PC) die in the same final battle or in two really close battles, or have the thalmor appear and decimate both sides to the point which the only way to survive would be for the remnants of both armies join up to fight the new enemy. that way the second great war would start and would over shadow the civil war in history. but im sure that Bethesda will find some crazy way to negate the two options and make them both cannon at the same time lol, they seem to be good about being obscure about things

P.S. I apologize if that doesn't sound coherent by im not in a totally coherent state of mind right now

The stormcloaks can go on even without Ulfric, but would the empire keep trying to take Skyrim back after Tullius and the emperor are dead? I think not. Psychohistory predicts secession.

Awesome. Canon. Yay. Perhaps I shouldn't have even played the game. Sounds like I should have bought the novel instead.

edit:

I must continue.

I have one major beef about all of this. What's the point of an open world game with a lot of freedom to make a character, if it's all predestined anyways? Canon takes the one thing the player has power over and takes some pride in - their character.. and spits on it. Bethesda gets all of the creative power over the world and it's trappings, but the player gets power in their character. But if they can't even get that, then what's the point. Is it a good thing that Bethesda absolutely controls everything - even your imagination and character concepts? It should be more of a relationship between developer and player. Instead, canon gets rid of all of that.

Theres an infinite number of game realities
In 1 reality the Emperor is assassinated, the Stormcloaks win, the Thieves Guild is restored
In another something else happens
In another etc

Canon doesn't invalidate any of those different realities, it just selects one of them as the starting point for the next game

Unless we have another Dragon Break or a fudge like Qutayba7 described (difficult if TES VI is set shortly after the events of Skyrim) bethesda have to select an ending as the starting point for the next game

I'd prefer them utilizing their story engine to do something similar to Mass Effect or Dragon Age, and carryover player choices into the future (even those games don't do it well, but it's a start). It seems like they have a foundation for this, but don't make much use of it. Like, if you make choices in this game, guards will comment on your progress, follower or friendship options may open up, quest rewards are given, etc.. But there's so much more they could do with that system. It should really matter in a future scenario whether you joined the Cloaks or killed Paarth or the Emperor and let you exist in that world state. Otherwise, don't even bother putting those choices in the game. If you can't make it actually matter, then just write a high quality directed narrative from the get go.

If they do that I can't imagine it making any real difference to the next game.
Maybe a slightly different intro depending on who won the Civil War. I suspect TES VI will take place in a different province with no carryover of characters (especially not the Dragonborn).

Perhaps it's even better to not have any relation to the past game at all. Maybe some "easter eggs", I guess, that made certain nods to your past actions.

For example, instead of having a "canon" lore book of the dragonborn, have it reflect your choices. Dragon Age II did this. There's a lootable book about the Blight of DAO, and it's content changes a little depending on how your other character played through that game.

Betheseda is likely to do something totally unexpected anyway. More we speculate, less it's likely to happen.

Yup, just to throw a spanner in the works ^^

If you ask me, Bioware's "save transfers" do much worse to "invalidate" your choices than just choosing a canon. Many of the choices you make in ME and DAO are given a lot of weight and implied to have long-term repercussions on the world at hand. But since they can't actually do anything to make those repercussions be felt from game to game, they basically stuff them into a sloppy one-size-fits-all scenario where more or less the exact same things happen. In the end, cause-and-effect are rendered moot because of them.

What's the big difference between saving the Council in ME1, the highest government officials in the galaxy, who represent the three most powerful races, and letting them die to be replaced by a new Council that favors humanity? Watching a dopey cutscene where a Turian makes quotation marks with his fingers. That's it. The Citadel still looks the same, it has the same (silly) security measures in place, run by the same people, and with the same anti-human politician running for office in Zakera Ward.

When a canon situation is chosen, it has a much better chance of respecting causality.

Dragon Age 2 also has a bad habit of outright ignoring many of your choices to do its own thing. Killed Leliana, Zevran, Justice, or Anders? Too bad, they all show up anyway.

Just to get back on track, but I think people are overlooking the 3rd option - the option reinforced by history and the metaphysics that tends to guide TES. History repeats itself, and gods are made and replaced by repetetion of old rites, you learned as much in Shivering Isles.

The first empire was formed by Talos of Atmora (aka Tiber Septim, aka Hjalti Early Beard according to some scholars) - a dragonborn, in his war against the old Aldmeri Dominion, he united Tamriel by force and created the Empire. In time he'd be revered by man, and ultimately became a god himself after death, as far as we can tell having apparently mantled Lorkhan.

In Skyrim, the Aldmeri Dominion has reformed, man has been dominated once more by the elves and now at what appears to be the end of things a new Dragonborn mysteriously emerges and begins to walk the same path once walked by Talos. Indeed, one ghost sees them as such kindred spirits that he is convinced the dragonborn is "hjalti". The book of the dragonborn seems to propecise that ultimately the storm crown will come down to the dragonborn, like it did Talos - it seems to me that they're setting up the dragonborn to lead a new empire independant of either the old empire or the stormcloak separatists and ultimately mantle talos.

"The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn."

I think the key word there is 'last'.

I don't know how many players would want their characters to found another Empire anyway. There are plenty of characters who stick to the shadowed paths and others who'd prefer the provinces become -and stay- independent. Consequently, I think there has to be some third party interruption of whatever status quo the player establishes with the civil war. A Thalmor invasion is a definite possibility, but I'd personally like the Tiger-Dragon Empire to make its presence known xD

This becoming another Stormcloak vs Imperials thread? I'm going to try to stay out of that.

That's what I figure. Something like a Dragon Break caused by killing Alduin, resulting in another Miracle of Peace.

I've been thinking; it seem like the canon Hero normally do all the questlines (Champion of Cyrodiil is an example. Did Thieves, DBH, SI, Main, etc.) In this case, the Canon Dragonborn will most likely do the DBH, Main, Companions, College of Winterhold, and Thieves Guild questlines.

As for the Civil War... That is hard to determine.. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Oh here's a thought. If the Imperials win then the Canon Dragonborn will prolly side with the Blades. I'm saying this because the Blades and the Empire is normally connected with one another in the lore. If the Dragonborn side with the Blades then expect Paarthurax's death in the lore of the next Elder Scrolls.

If Dragonborn side with the Stormcloaks then he (or she) is prolly on the Greybeards' side, since the Nords are quite Loyal to them and their leader (Paarthurax) while the Empire prolly could care less about them.

That's how I look at it, I think.

Well, I'm not saying to completely replicate Bioware's system. Just that it's cool idea in theory, and something Bethesda (or anyone) can improve upon.

Anyways, bottom line in my thinking is if you give me a choice, then let it matter. If you don't want it to matter, then don't give me a choice in the first place. I have no problem with railroading and being part of a directed narrative.. There are TONS of games that I enjoy that are like this. But I do have a problem with a story that doesn't direct me at all (like Skyrim), but then, in the end, just tries to be the other kind of focused story later on. Do one or the other, and do it right. Otherwise, it's just fail on all accounts.

That would never happen. In the setting and age skyrim is in, an 'alliance' would never work, just like it didnt work in Europe in their classical-medieval era. An empire the size as the imperial one also doesnt simply 'crumble'. It takes decades, if not centuries, of constant weakening. The idea of empires crumbling due to a few battles is only something that can exist it the mind of a child. Even when Rome was invaded by barbarians it didnt crumble the Empire. It took many years of political corruption and weakening to finally end

I don't even think the real empire of Rome ever truly "crumbled". Rome, the locale, crumbled, and Byzantium dwindled at a slower pace.. but where Rome fell, the Franks basically replaced them. And being formerly influenced by Romans, they took a lot of cues from them. Coupled with different religious leanings, Charlemagne became the new "Caesar" of the Holy Roman Empire. And then Western Europe became a game of "bobbleheads". Knock one expression of the Empire out, and another would pop up. Hell, even the proper name "Caesar" became equivalent to the word "leader or emperor" in these settings. "Kaiser". They all wanted to reenact the Roman Empire, basically.

There are a lot more nuances than this, but this is just an internet post, and I don't want to bore everyone. Point being though, if one were to borrow ideas from history for this game, it'd turn out to be some scenario where Nords resembled Franks or something.

Ah, but if you sent Alduin loose on the currents of time, you may also have delayed the prophecy of the Last Dragonborn.

But I agree that I don't care to be emperor or to found another empire. I kick the empire out of Skyrim so they can be independent, not so that they can take charge of everyone else again.