[Miss Hayley]

You dont have to kill the guy in Mehrunes Razor quest.

[Jake Easom]

You dont have to kill the guy in Mehrunes Razor quest.

True, but for those jonesing for the Razor, it IS a plot point that has to be finished.

[Genevieve]

True, but for those jonesing for the Razor, it IS a plot point that has to be finished.

Well it should be, one should not expect a gift from the prince of destruction by skipping through the flowers .

[Jason King]

Yes, because why should we worry about properly role-playing in a role-playing game? We should all be meta-gaming and playing OOC because they couldn't properly design the quest system.

you use the term meta-gamer:

• In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics, or the statistics of a creature that the player is familiar with but the character has never encountered. In general, it refers to any gaps between player knowledge and character knowledge which the player acts upon.

I approach RP from a very holistic place where I know who my character is, what they're doing in Skyrim and what they're trying to achieve. From there I let them encounter and respond to different things as they do, collecting pieces of information as they go and I work pretty hard to let them each be individual, to the point of being very fiercely involved in some of the interactions and ignoring others as seems fitting.

I'm offended by the assumption that suggesting on page 2 of a really heated debate about being railroaded that you can always reload if you don't want a particular quest makes me a meta-gamer when in fact so many of you are stuffing your characters in strict boxes defined not by your choices but instead by the things you refuse to choose based on what you already know about the game.

By definition sort of... well... meta-gaming by omission rather than inclusion. (Hey... finding out about a thing and acting on it are two entirely different things... if we all lived with blinders on and avoided knowing anything we didn't want to know, well... oh wait... most of us do.)

It's like creating a character named Veal, stuffing him in a box and killing him when he overfills it.

[Katharine Newton]

Well it should be, one should not expect a gift from the prince of destruction by skipping through the flowers .

I didn't mean that it should, was just noting that there are different reasons for doing some quests to begin with....

[brenden casey]

Its better then oblivions...

[Jonathan Windmon]

I'm offended by the assumption that suggesting on page 2 of a really heated debate about being railroaded that you can always reload if you don't want a particular quest makes me a meta-gamer when in fact so many of you are stuffing your characters in strict boxes defined not by your choices but instead by the things you refuse to choose based on what you already know about the game.

I'm sorry if you feel offended, but that's precisely what it is. You innocently walk up to someone, and they dump a quest on you without forewarning, and the only way to finish said quest is to break character. If you reload to avoid that character and make sure you don't get the quest, you're meta-gaming... using knowledge not available to your character (eg, that this person gives a quest you don't want) to affect how you play (eg, avoiding a specific person for no other reason).

For the record, I'm not using the term 'meta-gaming' as some kind of an insult. I'd be lying if I said I don't meta-game at times, I would be hard-pressed to find any RPer that doesn't ever meta-game, and sometimes meta-gaming can lead to fun. Meta-gaming also isn't an all-or-nothing binary state. My issue with it, however, comes up when a player is expected to meta-game in an RPG when they otherwise don't want to, simply because of poor quest design. If anything, I'd say your need to reload to keep your quest log clear is very symptomatic of the problem -- quests should not be dumped on players with no way out of them other than to follow a pre-scripted path that doesn't provide options for what the character would reasonably do.

[Charles Mckinna]

I'm sorry if you feel offended, but that's precisely what it is. You innocently walk up to someone, and they dump a quest on you without forewarning, and the only way to finish said quest is to break character. If you reload to avoid that character and make sure you don't get the quest, you're meta-gaming... using knowledge not available to your character (eg, that this person gives a quest you don't want) to affect how you play (eg, avoiding a specific person for no other reason).

For the record, I'm not using the term 'meta-gaming' as some kind of an insult. I'd be lying if I said I don't meta-game at times, I would be hard-pressed to find any RPer that doesn't ever meta-game, and sometimes meta-gaming can lead to fun. Meta-gaming also isn't an all-or-nothing binary state. My issue with it, however, comes up when a player is expected to meta-game in an RPG when they otherwise don't want to, simply because of poor quest design. If anything, I'd say your need to reload to keep your quest log clear is very symptomatic of the problem -- quests should not be dumped on players with no way out of them other than to follow a pre-scripted path that doesn't provide options for what the character would reasonably do.

Very much agreed. This would be very much fixed it they stopped with the quantity over quality crap ton of quests they they seem to thing is needed to be added in and actually made branching quests with multiple paths and ways of finishing them.

[Aaron Clark]

actually morality means little in this game whereas it was very important in oblivion [oblivion favorite game next to ZORK]
and you did not have to do any evil quests. you were never boxed in
when you did the knights of the nine you played the hero/good character always. as going evil you lost the armour etc
skyrim is all grey and what you do has very little impact anywhere
the deadric quests in oblivion were always an option with that one exception when martin needed an artifact. you had to go out of your way to start those quests
in skyrim they tie them into the game in many cases.. in marketh i avoid the stendar guy so i do not want to start that quest. that for me is not a fair choice at all
as he stands there forever now
in dawnstar you have the nightengale quest which you must do to become thane
they did indeed tie all these to the game-not happy about that
they spent more time on dungeons it seems...some of which for me are waaay too long. they get tiresome after awhile, especially when i think i finally got to the end and it just keeps going and going... aaarrggh. yes i know it suits some of you but not all of us
and they catered to those who prefer to play evil or morally grey characters with little choice for those of us who do like to play the morally good person
oblivion catered to the morally good person.. i will not likely buy their DLC because of this

[claire ley]

Your primary example is flawed.As a "good" person , your first encounter is helping a vigilant of stendarr to investigate evil-doings.You then experience the ghastly power of such an evil being and leave the house to never return.Yes , they never offered any other recourse for this , but you as a roleplayer can rectify the fact that your quest journal has the entry to help molag bal in it as a reminder of how insidious evil really can be , and to be on a better look-out in the future. What would your actual character be expecting? Some heroic epic battle between a god and a mortal? You'd be foolishly wasting your life if it was even possible , not to mention you might be possibly putting an entire town and it's populace at danger by pressing this particular issue. Not exactly a very responsible expectation from a good character. Besides , he's functionally powerless left in that crappy little alcove with his rusty-dusty altar nobody cares about. Better yet , leaving the Boethiah priest completely alone to continue tormenting Molag makes my good character chuckle immensely while I bide my time to gather resources sufficient in truly ending his presence there.

Your definition of roleplaying is yours and yours alone , as is mine. If you can't rectify the problems you have with the game by further roleplaying , the game is obviously broken for you and I'm truly sorry for that. I don't exactly like the way all games seem to just make a bee-line straight to violence and "evil" either , trying to play a good character in this game leaves alot of the game completely avoided and undone , but I personally don't have an issue with being reminded some powerful being tried to trick me to do something I didn't want to do and somehow rose above it before the point of no return redeeming my need to remain good. I'm not trying to excuse the writers , devs , or whatever , I'm simply saying this is the game they released and you either adjust your needs to it or it's broken to you. It was almost broken for me until I reasoned around some of the parts and my noob expectation of being able to have a heroic 1v1 battle with a freakin immortal Daedra at level 25........

I'm actually getting tired of seeing everything in gaming being compared to something else and people wanting the exact same game with updated graphics , they tried something new here by making it more action-based than RPG. They got the combat somewhat better but failed on alot of the RPG while somehow leaving a big sandbox around it all. To try something new is better than never trying , or you wouldn't have those supposedly better games to keep comparing anything to, they simply wouldn't exist or would be in a trash heap somewhere. If you want morrowind or oblivion with better graphics , there are some seriously good mod packs that do just that , there's even a demo I saw of oblivion running on the Crysis engine. They chose a slightly different path with this game and it didn't win on ALL sides , but it's not bad either.

[M!KkI]

no npcs should be labelled essential imo...if u wanna screw skyrim u should have the choice.

[Wayland Neace]

Absolutely agree with the OP. It really bothered me that Bethesda made it impossible to be a good guy in this game... Too few choices. They thought giving us the option to saw the trees or use the mill or whatever is giving a bonus way to influence the world, and freedom to the player, lol.
Even thought it has many imperfections I still love it... Gives way more freedom than any other game.

[Harry Hearing]

I can't tell you how many evil Daedric princes I now serve because I wasn't warned about what quests I was about to go do, or don't have the option to kill them.

Almost every Daedric quest offers the player two paths to completion. There is one exception (Molag Bal) but even then, you are warned about the Daedric Princes constantly. They're a powerful, prominent part of Tamriel's lore and citizens talk about daedra worshippers in hissing, resentful ways. Despite this, a handful of Daedric quests don't require the player to do anything unheroic in order to earn their rewards. Meridia, Azuza and Peryite's quests involve taking out corruption. Clavicus Vile only gives you his artifact if you refuse to murder his companion. Sanginue just takes you out drinking. Of course, there is the issue of Molag Bal but... it's Molag Bal, King of- Ah, go talk to Vivec about that one. =P

in dawnstar you have the nightengale quest which you must do to become thane

Then do the quest as a hero would. Purge the nightmares with the Priest of Mara, Erandur, and don't kill him. You can finish the quest and become Thane that way. No, you don't get the Skull of Corruption but... it's not exactly a shiny for heroes now is it?

[Manuela Ribeiro Pereira]

the quests in new vegas were pretty basic and simple not very complicated and you really didn't have a lot of choices other than who's side you were gonna be on and the game played out the same way no matter who's side you were on, nothing changed on the strip or anywhere else...actually in skyrim the quest system overall is much more dynamic and complex than in new vegas. everything about the quest system is way more complex than in new vegas.

Lol you have that all backwards. Vegas things change and there are multiple endings based on what you did throughout the game, that game is called an RPG. Skyrim is an action game with RPG elements.

[Sammi Jones]

Lol you have that all backwards. Vegas things change and there are multiple endings based on what you did throughout the game, that game is called an RPG. Skyrim is an action game with RPG elements.

So what's Final Fantasy? Not all RPGs offer multiple endings. Of the Elder Scrolls series, only Daggerfall did that and in the end, all of those endings happened. Skyrim is an RPG, it's just not as open as some might like. That doesn't make it less of an RPG, it just means it's less appealing to some. -shrugs-

[Roy Harris]

Example: Main quests makes you go talk to that crazy mage who thinks the Heart of Lorkhan is in that dwemer puzzle box in the glacial cave he's in. To finish the main quest, you must talk to him and get a lexicon cube. You go to Blackreach, get the cube inscribed, and pick up the Elder Scroll. You use the Elder Scroll to do what you need to in the main quest, then go back and talk to the mage, hoping you can get rid of the cube and the scroll. Low and behold, he immediately puts a blood-collector item in your inventory that you also can't drop. Great. . .

The Cube and the blood-collector are both removed from your inventory by completing Discerning the Transmundane.(the cube might be removed when the collecter is given). And the elderscroll can be sold to certain book loving Orc.

[Rhi Edwards]

You tell Brynjolf "no thanks" and keep asking around, you'll find other people who point you to the Ratway and can find Esbern yourself. There's no forced joining of the TG.

I don't know why people get bent out of shape about ignoring quest prompts in their journal. Another one of those mysteries I'm left with from reading threads here.

Yea we never forced joining of the TG why people get bent out of shape about is because they just can't ignoring quests in their journal they may not want to do the quest but they don't want it in they journal either,I like doing all the quest in the game but that just me.

[Nauty]

Roleplay + Completionist might not be compatible.

[sarah]

It would be nice to have the ability to file quests as 'irrelevant' in the log. I suspect that simply declining / abandoning them via the log might be game breaking if you deleted a quest on the main arc or whatever.

On the topic of railroading, what annoys me is not so much the quest log being stuffed full of things I'm not going to do, but the fact that I can't tell various characters to take a running jump and then back it up with force. Classic example is when you talk to Delphine, and she claims something about if she wanted you dead you'd be dead already. At that point, I recall quicksaving and then hitting her with ice spikes until she was crawling around on the floor begging for mercy. However, she can't be killed as she's 'essential'. In this case, it should have been possible for the player to kill her, then look at the map she's drawn up (its on the table in front of you ffs) and go to Kynesgrove based on that. Perhaps also find some of her notes in the chest nearby, allowing the main quest arc to continue.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers actually think things through. E.g. in the example given, Delphine is well aware that Septim, a dragonborn, basically conquered the whole of Tamriel based on his power as a dragonborn. And then they have her mouthing off at your character despite the fact that she should be aware that theres a good chance he can kill her effortlessly. She's even taken him into a hidden room where she could be murdered without anyone realising it... talk about stupid, especially for a character who is supposed to be cautious and a string-puller behind the scenes.

Similarly with the comments on the Daedra; whilst they're powerful, they don't have CHIM. Your character does, and damn right he should be able to mess them up. What would have been cool is if you broke one of their quests, they would periodically send their agents to kill you (much like the assassins who try to kill you as random encounters). You could even have their agents be massively overlevelled vs. the player, but at least provide the player the choice to act, and the consequences for so doing.

[!beef]

It would be nice to have the ability to file quests as 'irrelevant' in the log. I suspect that simply declining / abandoning them via the log might be game breaking if you deleted a quest on the main arc or whatever.

On the topic of railroading, what annoys me is not so much the quest log being stuffed full of things I'm not going to do, but the fact that I can't tell various characters to take a running jump and then back it up with force. Classic example is when you talk to Delphine, and she claims something about if she wanted you dead you'd be dead already. At that point, I recall quicksaving and then hitting her with ice spikes until she was crawling around on the floor begging for mercy. However, she can't be killed as she's 'essential'. In this case, it should have been possible for the player to kill her, then look at the map she's drawn up (its on the table in front of you ffs) and go to Kynesgrove based on that. Perhaps also find some of her notes in the chest nearby, allowing the main quest arc to continue.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers actually think things through. E.g. in the example given, Delphine is well aware that Septim, a dragonborn, basically conquered the whole of Tamriel based on his power as a dragonborn. And then they have her mouthing off at your character despite the fact that she should be aware that theres a good chance he can kill her effortlessly. She's even taken him into a hidden room where she could be murdered without anyone realising it... talk about stupid, especially for a character who is supposed to be cautious and a string-puller behind the scenes.

Similarly with the comments on the Daedra; whilst they're powerful, they don't have CHIM. Your character does, and damn right he should be able to mess them up. What would have been cool is if you broke one of their quests, they would periodically send their agents to kill you (much like the assassins who try to kill you as random encounters). You could even have their agents be massively overlevelled vs. the player, but at least provide the player the choice to act, and the consequences for so doing.

I think with Delphine it's a matter of superiority and faith in the myths of the Dragonborn. She believes what she tells you to do is what you should want to do and is older than most players picture their characters so I do see her as perfectly in character. That doesn't make her likeable, but her knowledge of the Blades makes her valuable, at least up until the point you reach Sky Haven. Without Delphine, Estbern wouldn't help you and Alduin's Wall would remain locked away.

And yes, the Daedra have achieved CHIM. Or more correctly, they're in a state which does not require them to have ever been anything other than CHIM. The Dragonborn does not have CHIM, s/he is not omnipotent. The only time you can really 'harm' a Daedric Prince is when you have been given the powers of a god yourself (Martin vs. Dagon, New Sheo vs. Jyggalag).

[Causon-Chambers]

I can get what the OP is saying here. For instance, not knowing what was really happening, I killed Grelod for Arentino. I had gone in that orphanage and saw how mean she was, I figured I was doing a good thing, lol.
Then I get the note, went to bed and am now either forced to kill seemingly innocent people, or commit to cancelling what I'm reading is "one of the better questlines" in the game. :-/

I reloaded a pre-sleep save and have been going with a 3rd option... My character hasn't gone to bed in about an in-game month so as not to have to deal with making this choice. I'm still rp'ing it though! I left this as a little reminder not to go to bed:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/613849101944646560/72AF446447C6FA7DB4345D57B2ECEC8E5DF697F5/.

[Rachyroo]

I can get what the OP is saying here. For instance, not knowing what was really happening, I killed Grelod for Arentino. I had gone in that orphanage and saw how mean she was, I figured I was doing a good thing, lol.
Then I get the note, went to bed and am now either forced to kill seemingly innocent people, or commit to cancelling what I'm reading is "one of the better questlines" in the game. :-/

I reloaded a pre-sleep save and have been going with a 3rd option... My character hasn't gone to bed in about an in-game month so as not to have to deal with making this choice. I'm still rp'ing it though! I left this as a little reminder not to go to bed:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/613849101944646560/72AF446447C6FA7DB4345D57B2ECEC8E5DF697F5/.

Well, there is yet another option in that scenario where you don't have to kill any innocents at all. Just kill Astrid, and then you get the opportunity to destroy the Brotherhood completely and forever, which, if you are playing a good character seems like a viable option. In this case at least, you are NOT railroaded into behaving like a bad guy.

[Charity Hughes]

As I said in the title, the railroading in this game has just been awful. I love the game overall, please don't misunderstand-but I have been cornered into doing many things I have not wanted to.

I can't tell you how many evil Daedric princes I now serve because I wasn't warned about what quests I was about to go do, or don't have the option to kill them.

The only way to not succumb to these results is to not do the quests-which is absolutely horrid
for completionists like myself. I'm sick of helping them complete their power or some other such nonsense because I simply wanted to help the local blacksmith get a dog. It's ruining my roleplay with the game, and has frankly grown tiresome.

It isn't just the Daedra though. As soon as you enter the Bee and the Barb in Riften you're automatically railroaded into being a member of the thieves guild, unless you just want to let the quests sit unfinished in your logbook. It isn't like you just do one tiny quest for them-get it out of the way, and then be done, because as soon as you finish one they force another more sinister one on your plate. The worst part of all is that I can't even kill them and at least fail the quest I get it out of the way, as they just resurrect. I suppose it's too much to ask give me a questline that will let me eliminate the Guild and liberate Riften from it's corruption. Instead the only way to avoid getting burdened with their questlines is to avoid going into the Bee and the Barb altogether throughout your entire playthrough.

I'm just sick of a lack of options ruining the integrity of my roleplay, and cluttering up my menus. It's bad enough that I have 50 lbs of undroppable quest item crap in my inventory even though I've already completed the quests for most of them, but now my hero dragonborn PC is a servant of like 3, 746 different evil demons, all because Bethesda assumed that there was no way I'd rather defeat them an get nothing over joining them and getting some crappy new mace or something.

It isn't just about the toys for some of us, and it ruined my firstplay through of the game-which is a real shame because overall the game is good.

Just don't do the quests. "Ohh, but it are sitting in my logbook uncompleted!" Boo. Hoo. And, sometimes, you have to do things you don't want to. Just svck it up. That, or you die. And you want an option to kill Daedric Princes? Really?

[Vicky Keeler]

As I said in the title, the railroading in this game has just been awful. I love the game overall, please don't misunderstand-but I have been cornered into doing many things I have not wanted to.

I can't tell you how many evil Daedric princes I now serve because I wasn't warned about what quests I was about to go do, or don't have the option to kill them.

The only way to not succumb to these results is to not do the quests-which is absolutely horrid
for completionists like myself. I'm sick of helping them complete their power or some other such nonsense because I simply wanted to help the local blacksmith get a dog. It's ruining my roleplay with the game, and has frankly grown tiresome.

It isn't just the Daedra though. As soon as you enter the Bee and the Barb in Riften you're automatically railroaded into being a member of the thieves guild, unless you just want to let the quests sit unfinished in your logbook. It isn't like you just do one tiny quest for them-get it out of the way, and then be done, because as soon as you finish one they force another more sinister one on your plate. The worst part of all is that I can't even kill them and at least fail the quest I get it out of the way, as they just resurrect. I suppose it's too much to ask give me a questline that will let me eliminate the Guild and liberate Riften from it's corruption. Instead the only way to avoid getting burdened with their questlines is to avoid going into the Bee and the Barb altogether throughout your entire playthrough.

I'm just sick of a lack of options ruining the integrity of my roleplay, and cluttering up my menus. It's bad enough that I have 50 lbs of undroppable quest item crap in my inventory even though I've already completed the quests for most of them, but now my hero dragonborn PC is a servant of like 3, 746 different evil demons, all because Bethesda assumed that there was no way I'd rather defeat them an get nothing over joining them and getting some crappy new mace or something.

It isn't just about the toys for some of us, and it ruined my firstplay through of the game-which is a real shame because overall the game is good.

Hahahahah genius dude!

[luis dejesus]

Well, there is yet another option in that scenario where you don't have to kill any innocents at all. Just kill Astrid, and then you get the opportunity to destroy the Brotherhood completely and forever, which, if you are playing a good character seems like a viable option. In this case at least, you are NOT railroaded into behaving like a bad guy.

No, I know, I just mean from what I've heard, I would be doing a disservice to myself by doing what I'd prefer to do (kill Astrid I guess), because the DB questline I'm reading is one of the best ones in the game. I can't decide if I want to do it just to experience it and kind of pretend it didnt happen to my character, or hold off until when/ and a seious if, I play through the game again with a different person.


Not railroaded in that example, just given 2 unequal options and the one you don't want seems to have the "better" experience.