[gemma king]

Saying "just ignore it" is a little like saying "I know your coffee tastes like pee but if you ignore the pee it's fine." You can't choose to not taste the pee. Pretending it's good coffee is an error.

Thats it though, you know the coffee is pee and you can choose not to drink it at all. The coffee will remain pee however.

As it stands Skyrim isn't an ideal RP base in its vanilla condition, only through mods will it become that way.
Your role as such is allready assigned to you as the Dragonborn and all you can decide on is that persons character, you can't really RP until you get alternative start mods.
If you are playing on a console, you have made your bed and now you have to lie in it.
I am not anti console BTW, I also own a PS3 and I love my X-Box controller dearly, especially for Skyrim.

What I am getting at is that a lot of the restrictions are brought on by the players themselves.
I will not argue that the game is flawles, just found out in another thread that one of my quests is screwed once again before I even start it.
There is a destinct lack of outcomes or quest options as well.
But to go crying it is all Beths fault is a bit lame, sometimes you have look at what you want out of the game and think if you can actually acheive it, either personally or through hardware constraints.

[Emily Rose]

I like that the player can be duped into wrking for the darker side of things and that who you are working for is not always
painted in black and white on a big board infront of you, but what i dont like is having no option to change my mind once
I have started, I should be able to back out or once I know who im working for to then be able to kill them.

What I dont like is having a 'quest log/log' book thats is full of quests I dont want to do or cant do because the quest is
broken. Not to mention the numerus quest items that im forced to console out of my invwentory. It should not be a matter
of weather the player wants to see/know every thing before he/she starts a quest but IMO he/she should have the option
to not continue (at any point in the quest!) if he does not wish to, the option to fail a quest should always be there else
we mite aswell be playing a liner game and in fact we would be, most of us play games like these because of the RP and
the freedom with in the game it self.

[Lauren Dale]

Don't want to derail the thread here, but what is this CHIM I keep seeing mentioned?

The linked blog below contains a very interesting treatment of CHIM, and what it means (part 1 of 4, its worth reading all 4 parts to get an idea of the subtleties that went into Morrowind).

http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/

[Nick Tyler]

Although you don't have to do it, your quest markers will also try to force you to join the TG if you play through the Main Quest and try to find Esbern. They really, really want you to join the thieves' guild.

Having been the victim of actual thieves, I'm not so cool with that. It's not a fantasy element to me. Never met anyone swinging a daedric warhammer or shooting a spell, but I've had my car stolen and broken into, my mother's jewelry inherited from her dead mother and my father's collection it took him a lifetime to build stolen, and plenty of friends traumatized by being robbed. Real thieves have nothing good about them. I would rather play no game than play a thief.

I absolutely agree. It's not a fantasy element or one that is fun. Everyone will have come close to or had something stolen from them. Does'nt matter how minor it is. It's nasty. Thieves are not fun or interesting. They're despressing and nasty and cause pain. I have no intention of making a character who is a thief.
Not saying my characters don't steal if they have to for quests like the alchemy one for Lami. But none of them ever steal if there's a honest choice.

Asassins, werewolf Companions, vampires, draugr, dragons, that's fun. But thieves, not at all.

[IsAiah AkA figgy]

Dude, you are in a dreamworld. There is nothing dynamic about Skyrim quests and they certainly are no where close to the complexity and length of NV quests. They all railroad you to the end. And nothing changed on the strip? Try going against the casinos and see how that works for you. Or pissing off the kings. You can also wipe of the Van Graffs or aid them. You can completely pork the Followers of the Apocalypse as well. And the game played out the same? There's over 60 outcomes in that game given how you've dealt with different towns, NPCs, companions and factions. All of which you can effectively destroy. Did you ever side with the Legion? You've clearly never touched on all you can do in NV. And we won't even talk about companions.

I totally agree. FONV has way more consequnces and results and dynamism than skyrim. Because it lets you do whatever you want. Fail what you want, kill who you want, whatever you like.
You can kill the entire CL camp, and it does'nt damage the quests because theres a back up leader at the end. You can kill whoever you like however important because theres usually a subordinate to fill the role. And if there is'nt, it does'nt matter, at all.
Skyrim quests have little to no choice in them.
The tagged npcs are ridiculous.
What, they could'nt have subordinates in case you killed them so it worked with the main quests?! FONV has them. Nothing stopping Skyrim.

[jennie xhx]

Delphine acts out of character, because if she really was as stupid as she comes across, she'd be dead long before your character ever met her.

Not necessarily. I've known some incredibly stupid people in my life that have managed to be incredibly lucky. I also remember an incredibly stupid wood elf from Morrowind who tried to take on a completely overpowered player in Mournhold and kicked my butt.

[Oceavision]

Although you don't have to do it, your quest markers will also try to force you to join the TG if you play through the Main Quest and try to find Esbern. They really, really want you to join the thieves' guild.

And the kicker is that there is another path to finding Esbern. There's apparently someone you can ask about finding Esbern in the Bee and Barb, without Brynjolf or joining the TG, but the game never tells you this or even hints at it. It doesn't help that Brynjolf hounds you all over Riften when you try to avoid him, and will accept you into the TG even if you purposely fail his little task.

The Mages Guild and finding the Elder Scroll for the Main Quest isn't any better, either. In fact, one could say it's worse as there isn't a way to get around the MG without metagaming (or an extreme amount of luck).

I'm honestly surprised the MQ doesn't also try to force you into the Companions or Dark Brotherhood.

[Agnieszka Bak]

And the kicker is that there is another path to finding Esbern. There's apparently someone you can ask about finding Esbern in the Bee and Barb, without Brynjolf or joining the TG, but the game never tells you this or even hints at it. It doesn't help that Brynjolf hounds you all over Riften when you try to avoid him, and will accept you into the TG even if you purposely fail his little task.

There's THREE other paths really. The one you're ref'ing, and simply going and finding him without "help", as well as talking to another barkeep.... outside the "normal" areas.

[Laura Hicks]

Although you don't have to do it, your quest markers will also try to force you to join the TG if you play through the Main Quest and try to find Esbern. They really, really want you to join the thieves' guild.

From what I've heard, that quest line had the most attention put into it, so they want to make sure everyone knows it.

[CSar L]

the quests in new vegas were pretty basic and simple not very complicated and you really didn't have a lot of choices other than who's side you were gonna be on and the game played out the same way no matter who's side you were on, nothing changed on the strip or anywhere else...actually in skyrim the quest system overall is much more dynamic and complex than in new vegas. everything about the quest system is way more complex than in new vegas.

I havent seen anything change as a result of my choices in the games Quests. For ejemplo, I have completed the Civil War quests and people are still talking about the Rebellion long after I have killed Ulfric. Heck, I wrote in another post that the random Imperial officers I run into are still telling me to me along that this is Imperial Business and I am a Legate...I have yet to see a result or consequence for any of my actions...

[Rodney C]

Although you don't have to do it, your quest markers will also try to force you to join the TG if you play through the Main Quest and try to find Esbern. They really, really want you to join the thieves' guild.

Having been the victim of actual thieves, I'm not so cool with that. It's not a fantasy element to me. Never met anyone swinging a daedric warhammer or shooting a spell, but I've had my car stolen and broken into, my mother's jewelry inherited from her dead mother and my father's collection it took him a lifetime to build stolen, and plenty of friends traumatized by being robbed. Real thieves have nothing good about them. I would rather play no game than play a thief.

Yeah that irked me, I mean I didn't mind the Daedra quests, sure the House of Horrors was bothersome, but I'm content with the fact I don't have to finish it. No Stone Unturned doesn't really bother me either even though the unusual gems sit in your inventory, they have no weight being quest items. But being ropped into the Thieve's guild when I'm NOT A THEIF during the main quest, that bothered me, Though I was lucky enough to have a high enough speech skill combined with the Amulet of Dibella to convince Brynjolf to tell me what I needed to know. Had I not had that amulet though I would have been roped into joining the guild.

[Sarah Edmunds]

Would players really be upset if they were allowed to role play their character? Real consequences is what makes multiple play throughs worthwhile in my opinion.

I agree, but I'm not so sure that everyone does. Just think how in Morrowind joining the various guilds took skill requirements, and you most likely wouldn't raise to the top of every guild. But now the design seems to be "we don't want to limit content for players".

[Neliel Kudoh]

Real consequences is what makes multiple play throughs worthwhile in my opinion.

This is true. But consequence is good only if we are able to choose. When consequences are forced on us they turn into poor game design from an open-world, roleplaying point of view.

For instance, we cannot get far into the civil war quests without beginning the main quest. Bethesda ought to be ashamed of themselves for this. They were so eager to railroad the player into the main quest that abandoned logic and plausibility altogether. Do the civil war quests before the main quest and the Jarl inexplicably knows about the events at Helgen...before he has been informed about the events.

But wait, it gets worse. The Jarl not only knows about the events at Helgen before he's been informed of them but your dialog informing him about the events at Helgen is still right there in your dialog options. So we have an incredible screw-up: after the Jarl tells you he will not accept the axe until you deal with his Dragon problem you can then choose to tell him for the first time about the Dragon problem.

This is what people mean when they say they don't like to be railroaded.

[Jordyn Youngman]

Another thing about railroading - once you pick a side, you cannot then swap sides. You are encouraged to pick a side based on your first encounter in the game, without knowing anything about either side, and then as you learn about the situation, you can't say, "Ulfric is actually kinda nasty, I'm going to join the Imperials after all," or vice-versa.

[Emma Copeland]

Another thing about railroading - once you pick a side, you cannot then swap sides. You are encouraged to pick a side based on your first encounter in the game, without knowing anything about either side, and then as you learn about the situation, you can't say, "Ulfric is actually kinda nasty, I'm going to join the Imperials after all," or vice-versa.

You can switch sides, when you get the Jagged Crown just give it to the other side's commander and then you can defect to their side. Also you can still join the Legion even if you go with Ralof and vice versa.

[Tiffany Carter]

This is true. But consequence is good only if we are able to choose. When consequences are forced on us they turn into poor game design from an open-world, roleplaying point of view.

For instance, we cannot get far into the civil war quests without beginning the main quest. Bethesda ought to be ashamed of themselves for this. They were so eager to railroad the player into the main quest that abandoned logic and plausibility altogether. Do the civil war quests before the main quest and the Jarl inexplicably knows about the events at Helgen...before he has been informed about the events.

But wait, it gets worse. The Jarl not only knows about the events at Helgen before he's been informed of them but your dialog informing him about the events at Helgen is still right there in your dialog options. So we have an incredible screw-up: after the Jarl tells you he will not accept the axe until you deal with his Dragon problem you can then choose to tell him for the first time about the Dragon problem.

This is what people mean when they say they don't like to be railroaded.

I don't think Bethesda can handle branching quests.