So, none of the "serious RPGers" here want a proper class system? One that restricts the skills you can use, or even one that restricts what classes you can be based on race/alignment? Just a gimped naming convention that gives some stats a minor fillip upon first starting the game. Meaningless, pointless and transient.

Serious my backside.

In my opinion, that's the biggest lie ever. But if you honestly feel that way, good for you.

18 skills - that may be less than Morrowind or Oblivion, but each skill has different specializations, which allow you to master different aspects of each skill.

Each skill has -at least- 2 specialization paths, if not more. That equates to -at least- 36 different specialization possibilities.

That is more choice than Morrowind even.

Telling you man, its all about the title.

Maybe they should name thier saves after the archetype they are trying to make.

Because classes have gone absolutely nowhere.

We are discussing a problem that does not exist.

Your knee jerk reactions become more hilarious by the day.

A far better mechanic is a faction mechanic that rewards players for acting in character, rather than a 'father knows best' mechanic that punishes good role-players who want to try something different. With a faction mechanic, you could create a faction that has an authorized list of weapons and armor, unique spells, custom perk trees, etc., without sacrificing logic or freedom. It's a little more work, but it's a much better system.

...Also I'd like skills to also diminish over time if you didn't use them, loose their perks temporarily until you got the skill back up, and could thus try to rebalance your character throughout the game...I like the idea of connecting it to factions though. Maybe you pick a "profession" within that faction that gives you a temporary skill bonus....

...Also I'd like skills to also diminish over time if you didn't use them, loose their perks temporarily until you got the skill back up, and could thus try to rebalance your character throughout the game...I like the idea of connecting it to factions though. Maybe you pick a "profession" within that faction that gives you a temporary skill bonus....

Yes.......Or a combination of factions that work together that have similar interests that will give limited access for someone "dabbling in the arts" of magic, but have a "restricted access".

Expanding on this would make the game include a class "system"........without defining anything, except for what the pc decides is appropriate, and the faction rewards accordingly.

Tiered Factions

Mage College: (Levels in the college 1-10 for warrior/ mage types / rewards: perks assigned to a different perk tree ...limited to 3 perks (1 perk per 3 levels)(but can choose which perks in lower levelled perk tree)

(Levels in the college 10-50 for mages who have at least 35 perks in vanilla mage trees(or whatever for balance) / rewards: perks assigned to a different perk tree for mage types with variations on necro, illusion, resto, etc. total : limited to 13 perks total to be divided into one "school of thought" or multiple.....

Just a thought.

So were birthsigns. Standing Stones are the physical representation of birth signs, and carry many of the exact same bonuses that birth signs did.

You are making my case for me.

See, and that's the mentality I don't like from the apparent "hardcoe" RPG'ers.

As far as I'm concerned, RPing isn't about treasure hunting and collecting gear, it's about developing a character.

I get a sense of my character from level 1 - as long as I have 2 swords, a piece of heavy armor, and a necromancy spell, I am "in character" - because that's who my character is; a Heavy Armored, Dual Wielding Necromancer. As soon as I get into Riverwood, buy my Raise Zombie spell, along with my Oakflesh spell, and possibly a heal spell, I am "in character". That is the beginning of my character's story, the journey of my character as a young and inexperienced mage / warrior, and the journey of growing and becoming more powerful.

And that's why to me RPG's aren't about numbers, RPG's aren't about treasure. Those things are a -part- of it (and even though Attributes aren't in the game as we know them, numbers still exist in the game in a necessary fashion), but that's not what an RPG is about.

It's about developing a -character-. And a character is more than just skills. A character is morals, values, goals and ambitions, social interactions and relationships, as well as skills and equipment.

Skyrim gives me the freedom to create a -character-, and have full control over all of those elements. Yes, Morrowind and Oblivion did as well, but I feel that Skyrim improves upon that and gives a superior character development system by giving me more choice, more options, more possibilities to make -MY- character different from someone else - even someone who may select the same style archetype as mine.

Like people said, as you leveled in past games, you became more and more like everyone else - you became more and more of a "Jack of All Trades - Master of All", even if that isn't your character vision. In Oblivion, just through natural playing (barely over 100 hours, main quest completed, getting into the meat of the Mage's Guild, and various side quests completed), I watched as my character entered "God mode" because the Attributes that were the focus of my character were all maxed out, and now I had to put Attribute points into -other- Attributes that I -didn't- want.

In Skyrim, as I level my character, he becomes more and more unique. And it doesn't take until level 25 to get a sense of who my character is. I have a sense of who my character is from the very beginning, when I have a vision for him, and I play to that vision.

Really...


.

Mmno.
I do have to interject here or Ill lose my priviliges to the nitpickers hat.
BIrthsigns are birthsigns and things that define your character at creation and do not change.
BIrthsigns are not in Skyrim.

What Skyrim does have is doomstones, same as in Oblivion, only with different effects.

Its a net loss.
We used to have birthsigns + doomstones and now we have doomstones.

:takes off nitpickers hat:

Wrong, Birthsigns are in Skyrim they are called Standing stones, take the elitest hat off they are still in the game and we can choose a new one if we don't like the current one we have. I could never do that in Oblivion, if I didn't like Atronach I'm stuck with it for the rest of the game, with Skyrim I can switch it if I want too.

Wrong, Birthsigns are in Skyrim they are called Standing stones, take the elitest hat off they are still in the game and we can choose a new one if we don't like the current one we have. I could never do that in Oblivion, if I didn't like Atronach I'm stuck with it for the rest of the game, with Skyrim I can switch it if I want too.

Take a religious sect as another example. You join the temple, but you can pick a position that aligns with your abilities and interests. A warrior could vow not to use blades (for example) and in exchange they would receive other advantages (a perk, maybe a spell that allows him to bless his weapon before combat, whatever). If he uses a blade, he instantly loses his faction perks/spells until he atones. Another player joining the same temple could decide that they want to be a healer. They might have even more restrictions on weapons and armor (maybe they can only wear robes and use staves and cudgels) but they have more perks and spells, access to special recipes and ingredients for healing, etc. The holy warrior could still train as a warrior and learn 1H, 2H, armor, etc., perks from qualified trainers, even trainers from other factions, but the healer would naturally be more interested in mastering the skills available within his own faction.

Lookatthat, a way to define characters with nary a class in sight.

No, it is a nitpickers hat.
I wont take my elitist hat off because as I grow tired of explaining, I would rather strive for excellence than be happy with being mediocre or sub-par.
Crab bucket all you like but I aint buyin

If you had taken the bother of actually reading my post you would have understood my explanation of why birthsigns are not doomstones.
I pah at you good sir.
:Pah:

No, they are not. You cant change your birthsign. You can change a greater power from a stone. There is a difference.

I like the religious sect idea........yep.

Could be a faction that has interests in overthrowing the mages guild .....which would of course ban the person from ever becoming a member of said guild, but would have rewards for
assasin / non mage types / or "agents missions"..... (A "hate" faction similar to the Dark brotherhood, but more EVIL)....

The possibilities are endless.

I did read it and it was full of lies. A Birthsign can also be a Standing Stone. They changed it so that we could change our birthsigns if we didn't like them. How is that a terrible decision.


Wrong, Standing Stones=Birthsigns. It's like Blade and Blunt, they are still in the game but are merged into 1 skill (One Handed) instead of two skills. Birthsigns are still in the game they are just called a different name and perform differently in that we can switch them out if we want too or not even pick one at all.