There was never anything wrong with the class system part de : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Yep. That's the beauty of tying perks to factions instead of classes. If you want to add perks, you just add factions or add perks to existing factions. If you add the new perks to classes players have no way to access them short of rerolling unless they're already a member of that class.

I thought the perks were tied to skills. Why would anyone change that. The idea with TES is to have options. Several classes in Oblivion had Marksman so why would you not tie the perks to marksman(kinda like they did)?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:22 pm

Ok, have you played Oblivion?
You selected certain effects on your character at the start via birthsigns and they were unchangable.
You selected (optional) certain effects on your character at a standing stone and could change them whenever.

Are you really deliberately trying to tell me that you see no difference between the two?

I'm pretty sure the point he's trying to make (and we all are, as you are absurdly thick headed) is that while yes, there was a change, the change is better. Having choice is good.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:10 am

The point is, I am what I play. I am what skills I use. This is infinitely better than being restricted to one class. The only difference is I have to use self control and my imagination. Ohhhhhhh lawd. I know that's just oh so hard for some people. :rolleyes:

No, most RPers have different characters that do different things. If they want to be an assassin they create that character. If the person gets the itch to play a different style character, they don't normally turn their assassin into a cleric. But then you get a FEW of them who will create a backstory where the character used to do one thing, but now does another. Which was still possible in Oblivion.

I'll also tackle this: That person who wants to RP a mage character has to use the lockpicking skill if they want to open the lock because that spell was removed from the alteration school. Should they use their imagination that the box is now open and they are looting imaginary treasure??

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:05 am

Wrong, Standing Stones=Birthsigns. It's like Blade and Blunt, they are still in the game but are merged into 1 skill (One Handed) instead of two skills. Birthsigns are still in the game they are just called a different name and perform differently in that we can switch them out if we want too or not even pick one at all.

Wrong. Know more about ES. A birth sign represents a birth sign, a standing stone, represents a changeable greater power from a stone. there are no more birth signs in ES.You don't become a Shadowscale by touching a stone.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:32 pm

I'm pretty sure the point he's trying to make (and we all are, as you are absurdly thick headed) is that while yes, there was a change, the change is better. Having choice is good.

Actually I see less choice:

Before: Set Birthsign bonus AND choose your own Standing Stone effects and change at will.

After: Choose your own Standing Stone effects and change at will.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:22 am

I'm pretty sure the point he's trying to make (and we all are, as you are absurdly thick headed) is that while yes, there was a change, the change is better. Having choice is good.

I am the one that is 'absurdedly thick headed' am I?
I am the one that irons over massive changes and declares them equal or equivalent am I?

Well isnt that a nice change.
I never thought that 'choice is good' would lead to the defense of less choice, but there you go.
At this point you have really talked yourself into ridiculousness.
Please quit before Im forced to joke about it.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:44 am

I will keep this short, unlike most posts, I'll get strait to the point.

The permise about being able to change as you go is cool and all, but it ultimately breaks the game. You should be able to be a jack of all trades-master of jack sh*t but not master of everything! I also think it lowers the replayability because instead of starting again with a new character/race etc you can just change and instantly become a mage, assassin whatever.

Thats just my two cents, but from the lmited amount of posts I've read it seems people agree.

Well, it was the Morrowind and Oblivion class system that allowed you to master everything, not Skyrim's system.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:04 am

Actually I see less choice:

Before: Set Birthsign bonus AND choose your own Standing Stone effects and change at will.

After: Choose your own Standing Stone effects and change at will.

Not only that, but there were also permanent greater powers from stones, so you could have a birth sign, one changeable stone, and all of the greater power stones that gave a permanent bonus.

Anyway, they got rid of birth signs because of newbs, dabblers, and people that apparently just started pressing random buttons at character creation.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:41 am

Not only that, but there were also permanent greater powers from stones, so you could have a birth sign, one changeable stone, and all of the greater power stones that gave a permanent bonus.

Well, it's still possible for this to be added in DLC so I wouldn't go that far yet. I am pretty sure character creation will not see any modifications from DLC so that's fair game.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:59 am

Well, it was the Morrowind and Oblivion class system that allowed you to master everything, not Skyrim's system.

Only because folks power/meta gamed to gain +5s. I've already shown how that can be prevented(or made less of an issue) while making a hybrid of what we have in Skyrim with what we also had in Oblivion.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:58 am

Well, it's still possible for this to be added in DLC so I wouldn't go that far yet. I am pretty sure character creation will not see any modifications from DLC so that's fair game.

Meh, one thing I'm not really complaining about. A lot Oblivion stones were title specific, and while they did add a lot (more greater powers mostly), including a very fun astrologist build that used nothing but greater and lesser powers, its not one of my major beefs with Skyrim. I was just pointing it out.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:01 pm

No, most RPers have different characters that do different things. If they want to be an assassin they create that character. If the person gets the itch to play a different style character, they don't normally turn their assassin into a cleric. But then you get a FEW of them who will create a backstory where the character used to do one thing, but now does another. Which was still possible in Oblivion.

I'll also tackle this: That person who wants to RP a mage character has to use the lockpicking skill if they want to open the lock because that spell was removed from the alteration school. Should they use their imagination that the box is now open and they are looting imaginary treasure??

Simple. Roleplay that picking locks is not a "thief" skill, but rather, a neutral skill that the player has access to, and that using a lockpick does not make one "less" of a mage, but is rather a skill that the character is skilled in to access special loot and access other areas.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:13 am

I am the one that is 'absurdedly thick headed' am I?
I am the one that irons over massive changes and declares them equal or equivalent am I?

Well isnt that a nice change.
I never thought that 'choice is good' would lead to the defense of less choice, but there you go.
At this point you have really talked yourself into ridiculousness.
Please quit before Im forced to joke about it.

Please, Merari. Do you think you aren't known around these forums as the guy who has absolutely nothing good to say about Skyrim lol? I have stalked these forums for months, even pre release, and you have *never* said anything good about this game. It simply blows my mind why you are even here. You literally do absolutely nothing but bash Skyrim.

You absolutely cannot see anyone elses point of view. It's either "OH MY GOD BETHESDA TOOK OUT SPELLMAKING THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN PLAYING THIS GAME ANYMORE" or nothing with you. It's pathetic.

There ARE people who ENJOY the changes to the TES series being made. I have played *every* single TES game to date. Every single one of them. Skyrim is my favorite, closely followed by Morrowind and Daggerfall. Oblivion was trash to me.

But that answer is wrong to you, isn't it? My opinion isn't valid because it isn't a reciprocal of YOUR opinion.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am

Simple. Roleplay that picking locks is not a "thief" skill, but rather, a neutral skill that the player has access to, and that using a lockpick does not make one "less" of a mage, but is rather a skill that the character is skilled in to access special loot and access other areas.

No, we shouldn't have to imagine compensations for Beth's Dumbing Down of the series.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:09 am

Only because folks power/meta gamed to gain +5s. I've already shown how that can be prevented(or made less of an issue) while making a hybrid of what we have in Skyrim with what we also had in Oblivion.

People only did that because of the horror that was Oblivion level scaling coupled with the lack of skills.
This was never a problem in Morrowind or Daggerfall that had both enough skills to count for the atrribute levveling as well as a more forgiving scaling system.

Oblivion did many things wrong.
I am really tired of explaining every five minutes that it is the level scaling and not the attributes, skills, spells, whatever that that horreur of a scaling destroyed.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:08 am

Only because folks power/meta gamed to gain +5s. I've already shown how that can be prevented(or made less of an issue) while making a hybrid of what we have in Skyrim with what we also had in Oblivion.

Not true.

Without ever "efficient leveling", I ended up being "forced" into increasing Attributes that I didn't want, because after about only 90 hours of gameplay or so (and beating only the main quest, and the recommendation quests for the Mage's Guild, as well as some various side quests) I had maxed out the Attributes that mattered to my build, and I was now forced to pump points into other Attributes, becoming closer and closer to a "master of all", and increasing aspects of the character that did not fit my vision and that I did not want for the character.

Classes never really restricted anyone to their selected skills, and they could still completely max out any and all skills within and outside of their "Major" skill specializations.

Skyrim makes you actually specialize, and eliminates the possibility of "master of all", because your perk investment is incredibly limited, thus, not being able to max out all skills.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:10 am

I will keep this short, unlike most posts, I'll get strait to the point.

The permise about being able to change as you go is cool and all, but it ultimately breaks the game. You should be able to be a jack of all trades-master of jack sh*t but not master of everything! I also think it lowers the replayability because instead of starting again with a new character/race etc you can just change and instantly become a mage, assassin whatever.

Thats just my two cents, but from the lmited amount of posts I've read it seems people agree.

Should have left out the first line, then. And the last.

I thought the perks were tied to skills. Why would anyone change that. The idea with TES is to have options. Several classes in Oblivion had Marksman so why would you not tie the perks to marksman(kinda like they did)?

Oops! So much talk of classes has addled my thinking! Yes, perks are tied to skills, but my mind was going: "now, if there were classes, the classes would define what perks are available...". An easy mistake to make, considering perk trees now replaces classes. Faction-specific perks would still be tied to skills. It's just that you'd have different perks available depending on your faction.

No, most RPers have different characters that do different things. If they want to be an assassin they create that character. If the person gets the itch to play a different style character, they don't normally turn their assassin into a cleric. But then you get a FEW of them who will create a backstory where the character used to do one thing, but now does another. Which was still possible in Oblivion.

I'll also tackle this: That person who wants to RP a mage character has to use the lockpicking skill if they want to open the lock because that spell was removed from the alteration school. Should they use their imagination that the box is now open and they are looting imaginary treasure??

My mages don't open locks. Probably because I'm playing in character.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:49 am

Not true.

Without ever "efficient leveling", I ended up being "forced" into increasing Attributes that I didn't want, because after about only 90 hours of gameplay or so (and beating only the main quest, and the recommendation quests for the Mage's Guild, as well as some various side quests) I had maxed out the Attributes that mattered to my build, and I was now forced to pump points into other Attributes, becoming closer and closer to a "master of all", and increasing aspects of the character that did not fit my vision and that I did not want for the character.

Classes never really restricted anyone to their selected skills, and they could still completely max out any and all skills within and outside of their "Major" skill specializations.

Skyrim makes you actually specialize, and eliminates the possibility of "master of all", because your perk investment is incredibly limited, thus, not being able to max out all skills.

You must svck then. I never meta, power, or any other game-ed the system. Never worried about +5s and had ten times the amount of builds you had.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:17 am

Not only that, but there were also permanent greater powers from stones, so you could have a birth sign, one changeable stone, and all of the greater power stones that gave a permanent bonus.

Anyway, they got rid of birth signs because of newbs, dabblers, and people that apparently just started pressing random buttons at character creation.

And you all realize of course that it has been 200 years since Oblivion in game correct?

so, a lot changes in 200 years........

Who knows what happened.......Birthsigns are now gone......not sure how it happened, but hey.......why ask why...

It's now part of the series (so far)

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:19 am

Simple. Roleplay that picking locks is not a "thief" skill, but rather, a neutral skill that the player has access to, and that using a lockpick does not make one "less" of a mage, but is rather a skill that the character is skilled in to access special loot and access other areas.

Can I then roleplay that I can access a skill level 50 alteration perk when I it is at 40 because of all the skill increases I got in lockpicking??? Somehow I don't think the game mechanics will allow that.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Please, Merari. Do you think you aren't known around these forums as the guy who has absolutely nothing good to say about Skyrim lol? I have stalked these forums for months, even pre release, and you have *never* said anything good about this game. It simply blows my mind why you are even here. You literally do absolutely nothing but bash Skyrim.

You absolutely cannot see anyone elses point of view. It's either "OH MY GOD BETHESDA TOOK OUT SPELLMAKING THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN PLAYING THIS GAME ANYMORE" or nothing with you. It's pathetic.

There ARE people who ENJOY the changes to the TES series being made. I have played *every* single TES game to date. Every single one of them. Skyrim is my favorite, closely followed by Morrowind and Daggerfall. Oblivion was trash to me.

But that answer is wrong to you, isn't it? My opinion isn't valid because it isn't a reciprocal of YOUR opinion.

And you cannot see his point of view?
He is a long time fan of ES and is watching it degrade into somthing awful. He has every right to come on here and voice his dissatisfaction with Skyrim.
You should look at it from his Point of view. You might gain some insight.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:22 pm

(text)

I dread to say this but bias drivel of the level of fox news.

Please do click on my avatar to find my post history and please do take note of all of the 'positive' Skyrim threads I have posted on and while you are at it please also take note of how many people I have helped with bugs, questions, advice and the like.

If anything, going by post history, it is you that has little to contribute but now were at an imga projectile slinging contest are we not?

Now.
Quit the ad hominems.
Respond to my message or do not respond at all.
Play fair.

I will only say this once.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:25 am

And you all realize of course that it has been 200 years since Oblivion in game correct?

so, a lot changes in 200 years........

Who knows what happened.......Birthsigns are now gone......not sure how it happened, but hey.......why ask why...

It's now part of the series (so far)

And how would 200 years change what astrological sign you were born under? Especially when there's still Shadowscales?Todd told us how it happened. Also, read my post after that. I don't even really care about BS, there's bigger fish to fry in regards to cut content.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:52 pm

My mages don't open locks. Probably because I'm playing in character.

But why can't a mage open a lock?

If a mage is a dungeon crawler, and looking for newer treasure, why wouldn't he practice the ability to get into rooms and chests?

Why does picking a lock have to be a "thief" skill?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:42 am

I dread to say this but bias drivel of the level of fox news.

Please do click on my avatar to find my post history and please do take note of all of the 'positive' Skyrim threads I have posted on and while you are at it please also take note of how many people I have helped with bugs, questions, advice and the like.

If anything, going by post history, it is you that has little to contribute but now were at an imga projectile slinging contest are we not?

Now.
Quit the ad hominems.
Respond to my message or do not respond at all.
Play fair.

I will only say this once.

Trust me, I definitely have perused your post history. And my points stand correct.

And I checked my inbox, don't have any messages brah.

And again, please, stop with the cover up nonsense. Everyone knows exactly where you stand on Skyrim. Anyone who has ever said anything that is not exactly like you knows.