Wow. Glad I continued this thread. I go off to dinner and visit family and the thread's grown huge.
Gah... blanket statements.
You're telling me that there are no perks in Skyrim that are good?
Also, between searching for Standing Stones that are dynamic and choosing a class that is static... I'd much rather prefer the current setup.
Choices, they are a good thing.
Bingo. This is the point of game, isn't it? Choices. Oblivion was my first TES game, and Skyrim makes it obvious that I can create any kind of character I want...without having to have the decision made right at the start of the damn game. If I start out wanting to go steal stuff and play a thief, then decide I don't have the patience to have to sneak around bears and bandits, I can pick up some armor and a weapon and play as a warrior-thief. Or, maybe I start as a warrior then at level 5 get an interest in magic and decide to pursue both abilities. Or maybe I'm a student mage and I just get sick of it and go buy a set of leather armor, a bow and some arrows, learn some alchemy and I'm a Ranger-type, living off the land and what I hunt. Or perhaps I'm a mage, dabbling in a variety of forms of magic, then at level 5 I get bitten by the necromancy bug and go find a cave to live in while I concentrate on raising undead.
It's all possible. The only one I can maybe think of might be the monk-type class, but even that isn't impossible. Get some healing ability and some alchemy to make yer health potions, and go beat the crap out of stuff. Yes, it's going to be harder without weapons - it's silly otherwise - but is it impossible? Probably not.
The class system has a long tradition going back to D&D and essentially has the purpose of balancing strengths and weaknesses and encouraging complementarity in parties. The past, however, can sometimes be tyrannical, and people come to expect all rpg's to use D&D patterns even when those games might be moving in another direction.
The pen-and-paper RPG Hero system, used in the RPG game
Champions, technically abandons any sort of character class or even character level. You have attributes, skills and powers, and that's it. Points are awarded as experience, and these can be used to improve those attributes, skills and powers. The powers are fantastically created through the point system. For the power "energy blast" it takes X amounts of points to get 1d6 of damage, and so forth. Classes and levels are completely irrelevant; the player is free to create the character he or she wishes.
The Elder Scrolls has been abandoning true class at least since Morrowind. Class choice eseentially gives you initial stat bonuses and may influence patterns of leveling, but doesn't create real restrictions. You can use any skill, wear any armor, use any weapon. In Morrowind and Oblivion, class also gave you a character concept that you could pursue or abandon as you went along. Nothing in Skyrim prevents you from having such a concept, and stronger characters specialize in some skills more than others. But the apparatus of class just doesn't effect gameplay. It would merely be window dressing (like the attributes people reminisce about).
Yup. I agree, and I think for too many people that's the real reason they want classes back. They just don't feel like a mage if they don't officially have something in the menu system, a field that says "class" with the data reading "mage", when really their actions define what they are.
Perhaps the next thing to disappear will be Level. At present, it is arbitrarily every ten skillups. I suppose it helps with the leveled lists, but perhaps there are other ways to conceptualize progress and advancement. D&D's numerical system laid the groundwork for computer rpg's, but do we have to slavishly stick to that model and churn out more cookie cutter games that merely change setting and graphics? I like Bethesda's approach. They respect the past, but move forward and abandon elements in their game design that are merely vestigal.
I can easily see this happening. See my above comments about the Champions tabletop RPG.
That is what they did, the tried the attribute system for 4 entire games, and their conclusion was that it didn′t fit the design they wanted. They didn′t want a system where the character was supposed to ignore his pre-made choices in order to develop, a system that rewarded the player for using those skills that his character was supposed to be the least adept in. I don′t believe that it was their intention when they designed the class system from the beginning that if you want to be a good thief you should pick or customize a class as far from thief as possible, but that′s what the design encouraged you to do. And a game IS it′s mechanics, no matter what people say that you could just ignore this and stick to your main skills. If the game rewards a certain action and approach, that is what I am drawn to do. It dangles a desirable reward (progression) in front of me saying "ignore your class skills, and you will grow more powerful!". A person with proper knowledge of game design and how players function finally looked at it and decided that it was a flawed design and they replaced with a proper design that steers the player in the direction of making the proper choices the designers wanted to see in the game.
Agreed. The existence of power leveling showed that the class system was flawed.
In my opinion, that's the biggest lie ever. But if you honestly feel that way, good for you.
It is a lie, and doesn't even have anything to do with classes. There are less build types viable, or even possible in Skyrim than in previous ES games, namely Morrowind, Daggerfall, and even Oblivion.
Seriously?
You can do anything in Skyrim. What character type cannot be created?
+1
It seems this problem has been eliminated. I for one, always chose a custom class. Even in good old D&D you could choose to be a Fighter/Cleric/Mage. You would just level up at a 1/3 of the rate of every one else. I feel that Skyrim has liberated us from the the preconceived notions of classic fantasy "classes".
As far a "viability" of character builds... ANY build is viable. Period. If I want to run around in my underwear, punching people with one hand, casting restoration spells, picking pockets, and blocking with a whiterun guard shield all day. I can do that. That is what the difficulty scale is for. It may not be "viable" in the power gamer sense, but I for one enjoy the beginning moments of wimpy-ness more than the "I win" button endgame craft grind dude.
Hear hear.
See, and that's the mentality I don't like from the apparent "hardcoe" RPG'ers.
As far as I'm concerned, RPing isn't about treasure hunting and collecting gear, it's about developing a character.
I get a sense of my character from level 1 - as long as I have 2 swords, a piece of heavy armor, and a necromancy spell, I am "in character" - because that's who my character is; a Heavy Armored, Dual Wielding Necromancer. As soon as I get into Riverwood, buy my Raise Zombie spell, along with my Oakflesh spell, and possibly a heal spell, I am "in character". That is the beginning of my character's story, the journey of my character as a young and inexperienced mage / warrior, and the journey of growing and becoming more powerful.
And that's why to me RPG's aren't about numbers, RPG's aren't about treasure. Those things are a -part- of it (and even though Attributes aren't in the game as we know them, numbers still exist in the game in a necessary fashion), but that's not what an RPG is about.
It's about developing a -character-. And a character is more than just skills. A character is morals, values, goals and ambitions, social interactions and relationships, as well as skills and equipment.
Skyrim gives me the freedom to create a -character-, and have full control over all of those elements. Yes, Morrowind and Oblivion did as well, but I feel that Skyrim improves upon that and gives a superior character development system by giving me more choice, more options, more possibilities to make -MY- character different from someone else - even someone who may select the same style archetype as mine.
Like people said, as you leveled in past games, you became more and more like everyone else - you became more and more of a "Jack of All Trades - Master of All", even if that isn't your character vision. In Oblivion, just through natural playing (barely over 100 hours, main quest completed, getting into the meat of the Mage's Guild, and various side quests completed), I watched as my character entered "God mode" because the Attributes that were the focus of my character were all maxed out, and now I had to put Attribute points into -other- Attributes that I -didn't- want.
In Skyrim, as I level my character, he becomes more and more unique. And it doesn't take until level 25 to get a sense of who my character is. I have a sense of who my character is from the very beginning, when I have a vision for him, and I play to that vision.
Precisely. I think some people need to go back and spend a year playing a pen-and-paper RPG with a group of people so they can understand what role-playing is. We have too many people that think role-playing means getting out a spreadsheet to crunch a galaxy of attributes and other stats, while on the far end of the spectrum we have people whose immersion is broken if the game doesn't require them to sleep eight hours a night, eat three square meals a day, wash behind their ears and remember to wipe front to back (well, for the girls anyway) as well as remember to call their mothers.
Telling you man, its all about the title.
Maybe they should name thier saves after the archetype they are trying to make.
Because classes have gone absolutely nowhere.
We are discussing a problem that does not exist.
I agree completely.
» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am 
