My first character was exactly that. Trying out things, taking perks in two-handed, destruction... and after some time finally sticking to sword & buckler for melee and sneaky archery to weaken the stronger enemies. No problem with perks.

About the wagon, it's absurd to say your character is born just before being the wagon because every characters starts the same. The characters start as "a nobody in a strange situation" in every single TES. The theme of the prisoner is always there because TES games are humorous too. There's always been jokes that some players don't take well because "it breaks the immersion" when it doesn't break the fourth wall. But anyway, the character coming from nowhere is great because the point isn't to let people write novels about what their character was before but the point is we don't care. The character wasn't developped more than the commoner with just his racial traits. His adventure truly begins there. For TES, the authors have always decided to skip the presentation of the ordinary world of the character and jump to the triggering factor. This has absolutely no consequence nor is it influenced by the fact that the game use a class-based or free-to-build system.

The few points you earn by choosing major skills is merely a candy as an excuse for chaining you to that choice the rest of your character's life. They can't represent a life-long choice before being prisoner, because that's a few of the easier to gain and while playing the game you will gain in a few day more levels than your whole life before being prisoner. It's absurd. Even in Morrowind you could easily raise your minor skills above the starting level of major ones. How will you explain that? Your character was a [censored] prior to the exile to Vvardenfell? Again, as in my previous point, we don't care about your past. We're not going to try to explain it. TES isn't that serious, or uptight like some players are.

You want another proof that being class-based or not doesn't change anything on the believability of the past of your character or his uniqueness? In Oblivion you actually started just like in Skyrim. Isn't it ironic?
In fact that was the first step from Bethesda to make the decision of what your character would be less stupid. They knew it was totally awkward to ask which skills you'd want with such precision as major, intermediate and minor. The player : "I have no f idea how your game works, how am I supposed to sort skills in such categories?"
So they created a tutorial for you to test the skills and have an idea before choosing. The sewers. But of course it's far from being a smart design, as you still don't have much idea what are all those skills and if they'll really be useful to you specifically. And the tutorial can't last two hours just to present you everything. So with Skyrim they give you everything, you test out what you want and you keep what you like to create the character you want instead of the character you thought was possible to make.

And that leads us to another funny point after the players blocked on the D&D system. Most of players don't start playing a RPG with a character of its universe that will adventure in that universe, they take a character they like, that they play in every single RPG and try to develop it again in that new RPG universe. The name is taken from a fiction they liked, the philosophy can be from another, etc. Sometimes it doesn't come from a movie or a book, but it comes from the character they built in another RPG.
With that in mind, lots of players don't even bother knowing which skill do what, they pick the skills that sounds the closer to that character they always play. When they are stuck with a crappy class (if the game allows customization), they deny it and prefer saying that's the way they wanted to play their character, for roleplay. Or that the game is bad. That's only denial. I started with a Bosmer Archer in Morrowind because I liked the idea of a wood elf hunter, knowing the nature and shooting arrows in the forest. Fortunately I quickly got closure for that idea, abandonned the crippled bow and took advantage of the blade skill that this preset class had. I went through the game with a daedric claymore and everything was better. That skill saved my character.
I did almost the same mistake in Oblivion, believing that this time archery would be better and that it would combine well with alchemy for poisons. That preconceived character was so pathetic that it lived only because that was a character I wanted to like. Then I accepted my mistake and trashed it. Because there were no other solution. No way to reconvert, to change class, to change your character's life. You chose a wrong path? Enjoy it to the end (ie your character's suicide).

How is that better than my experience in Skyrim where I was able to adjust my character style to the reality of the game instead of having a shameful character and keeping it because theorically it should be otherwise. There's a moment all the fiction you weave around your character has to actually fit in the game, not just in your dreams. Between instant gratification fun and writing a novel, there's a world of possibilities. Some players are too much on the first side and toss the game because it's not balanced, some toss the game because it doesn't fit in their own stories... but the existence of the game has to be in-between. Let the game give you the tools for a story and use them for fun. It's not a super-duper-serious game.

yes, but your not leveling up as a nightblade. your character is leveling up because it's getting better at doing something else. the attributes that define being a nightblade don't get stronger from this. just because its not directly related doesn't mean you dont improve at all

Nobody put a gun to your head and said "you have to open that chest" so don't say you were forced to improve your lockpick skills. It's perfectly feasible to play the game with very minimal usage of lockpicks.

And now, you start to complain that there's no consequences in Skyrim because you don't chose a class? You wanted lockpick to be a minor skill like in previous games so that you could open locks without leveling and facing harder challenges? That's hypocrite. You used lockpicks and so you increased in level in Skyrim. That's the consequence for your choice of using them.

Skyrim got consequences for the choices you make. Oblivion/Morrowind gave you choices to avoid the consequences by metagaming a class that has major skills it doesn't use so that you can become stronger without leveling? And you say the old system was better because you had to face "consequences" for the choices you made at birth?

Exactly. You level up by selling a necklace and raising your speech, then you get to choose what skill you add a perk to, let's say in the case of a Nightblade assassin, to your sneak skill. What's the big deal?

Bam.

I loathe when the game tells me that I have to play within certain constraints. Give me a world with its normal boundaries and set me loose in it. I don't want to be a "mage" or a "warrior" or "ranger" I just want to go and do [censored] and if my actions fit me into a certain class archetype, then so be it, but *I* will have been the one to define my character.

I like the system in Skyrim.

ES games have always been about freedom - class systems were never meant to constrain you. Skyrim still allows this but at least adds some restraint - I play a typical knight-style char, heavy armour, block and sword mainly. I can still do destruction magic and be pretty good at it. However, as I'm putting perks into heavy armour, block and sword it means I might not be quite a master of destruction magic as I won't have the perk points to spend on it.

Overall, that seems to be a good compromise - Freedom to do different things but some restrictions that stop me being totally overpowered.

But I also like that you don't have a pre-defined class - yes, from an RP point of view I understand where people are coming from. And for those that do it, great if you've got an entire life history in your head about your char simply from picking a class from a list at the start of the game.

However, you're playing a game in the here and now. It's what you do in Skyrim that defines you, not what you imagined you previously did. For the first few levels I didn't put any perks into anything. Then I looked at the skill trees and started applying some perks based on how I'd found myself playing the game.

I didn't start with any particular intention of using heavy armour, block and sword but saw that those were the things I had been using then applied perks accordingly.

You formed your own classes before as well. There never was another way around that you are imagining.

i miss classes...

It actually isn't literally the same thing. Because we no longer choose Major and Minor Skills that contribute to our level ups we now level up by raising any skills and the effects is different becfausde we now level differently. That is pretty much a textbook example of NOT THE SAME THING ... because, you know, it's like different man.

The game never told you to play in any way. You could make any kind of class you wanted, except one that could level up off of all the skills. You had to pick skills which would contribute to your level up. It added depth to the levelling system.

It actually broke the leveling system without giving much in return. That's not "depth" for me.

I liked the class system, especially the fact that you could create your own custom class. Many people have innate abilities that give them advantages over others, so why not keep that system in the game? Instead it was replaced with Guardian Stones, which the concept is fine, but you don't have access to all the stones off the bat and you can change it at any time, willy-nilly. Sorry, but I think I prefer a system where your specialization and attributes govern your skills.

MW and OB allowed you to become more or less a Jack of all trades at higher character levels, because the skill level determined the skill's efficiency and/or perks were directly coupled to your skill level. In Skyrim perks have a dominant role and although you can raise all your skills, the perks are not attached to the skill levels automagically. Instead you have to assign them yourself. Only 80 of the 251 perks can be activated, which ensures me that my character can be more defined in the skills I prefer at higher levels. To me that's much better than a meaningless class label.

I have always created a Custom Class. I find that the premade classes in TES always have pointless skills attached to them or some flaw that if I had control over, I could improve upon to suit my needs. The Custom Class idea is a GREAT idea. I don't necessarily think they needed to remove pre-set classes from the equation, I can see how this could help newer players or players seeking more immersion to carry a class label and in certain dialog would be referred to by their class. You can argue however that since Custom Classes DO exist, you do not really need classes as the same thing can be achieved by simply making it yourself.

Now, I know people will argue that the Custom Classes in Skyrim are not the same as previous TES games. To that, I will have to agree. The reason behind this is that Skyrim chose a blank canvas approach. You define your character through playing. The only real difference of origin is race and we already have numerous threads upset about how this was handled and how little of impact they have. Further, the removal of attributes further perpetuates the since of a "loss" of options. Overall, the system hasn't changed that much although at first it looks quite dramatic. Perks have more or less replaced much of this and your 3 primary Stats govern more than they usually would.

Problem 1: We need more options at character creation, from an immersion/RPG point of view as well as gameplay point of view. The removal of choosing Primary/Major/Minor skills I think was a mistake.
Problem 2: Race selection does not "matter." This can be argued either way. It is nice to not be constrained to the traditional roles such as Orcs -> Warriors, Nords -> 2H, High Elf -> Mage - however, on the opposite side of the spectrum, by going against tradition you create a total sense of detachment and uniqueness of your character.

Solutions to Problem 1: I think you should be able to pick a Birthsign that carries with it a unique passive bonus. You should be able to pick a Deity (or not) that has a unique ability offered. They need to go back to picking Primary / Major / Minor skills in some capacity. The modifier and ranked perks (such as Armsman 20/40/60/80/100% damage for one-hand) would be built into the skill should it be chosen as a Primary for example. Upon reaching benchmarks in skill gain, you would receive a new rank (these can even be quests provided by Trainers that need to be completed to become more adept). Perks then need to be more special and unique and offer a LOT more specialization than they do now by granting new abilities, combat skills, or spells.

Solutions to Problem 2: A General Perks tree or a Perk tree specifically for your race might solve the problem nicely. You are not limited to the race you choose in what you do, but as you progress the race you choose may lend itself to certain things moreso others. No matter how this is handled, it is one or the other - race having an impact or not.

Oh, another Oblivion comparison thread, this is new and refreshing!

When will people accept that this is a new and different game?

Play it or leave it!

Um you play the game and test them out. If you don't like the way skills work together you re-roll. It's a long standing tradition in RPG's going way back to pencil and paper games. When players of mine used to want to re-roll I would make sure I had something special planned for the character they were retiring and find a way to work their new character into the current campaign. For a computer game you just push NEW GAME. It's really easy to figure out how skills work. Sounds like you think discovering things is no fun. I disagree.



Yes they give you everythiung! That's so wonderful.


Now I know you have very little understanding of TES. I played Bosmer Archers in both Morrowind and Oblvion. They were awesome characters. In fact I have about 5 characters that I always remake in each TES, and I do a few things differently but one of my mainstays is a Bosmer Scout (custom Scout) who leabs more toward a military style scout than a thief. He's always awesome.

Your examples of character builds given from Morrowind and Oblivion prove you either never played those games or you never gave yourself a chance to learn their systems.

It didn't break it in any way. You levelled up Major and Minor skills to level up. You could increase other skills but they did not contribute to your levelling.

There was some dissonance in Oblivion due to the level scaling.

Actually all that has to happen is you need to accept that some of us play Skyrim, really really enjoy it (it's my favorite game this year), and still have complaints. Also some of us are probably more into RPG systems than you and would rather discuss where we think the system went wrong than bash our heads on the wall. Do you need a padded room brah?

No it didn't. It was seven major skills, chosen to metagame the leveling & stat gain system, while the character actually played using Minor skills. Characters sprang into existance in that prison cell, just as much as they spring into existance in the cart.
(Hmm, now that I think about it, that's exactly true. You didn't define anything but your face & race in the cell. You didn't pick your skills until the end, after the Emp died.)

If you "roleplay" and make up some lead-in story and background for your character beforehand - that's no different in Skyrim or Oblivion. It's in your head or on paper before you start, and colors how you play your chracter. The fact that part of the "how you play" in Oblivion involved tagging some skills, and in Skyrim involves throwing perks at some skills, makes no difference.

Class was meaningless in Oblivion.



If you say so. I always picked my race by looks. Racial powers? Starting skill levels? Not really all that important.

This is a great advancement actually. And by that I mean they stop us being able to have all perks. I would have kept the old system and achieved a similar result by making attritbutes controllers of max skill level and not allowing any character to max all attributes.

Being able to max all attributes and all skills was a problem that I'm glad they didn't continue but I wish they would have dealt with the problem within the old levelling system because they could have achieved the same result without scrapping the old levelling system.

I love it when people say that the 'mythical efficient levelling' was some kind of requirement for Oblivion. It really isn't, I've played characters in Oblivion both ways and it's much more fun to not use the 'efficient levelling' techniques.

So in Skyrim you run out and cast Soul Trap on animal corpses to raise your skill? Or persaude the dude in Riften over and over to raise your speech. Or cast magic on the guy you go through Helgen with repeatedly to gain loads of skill ups before leaving Helgen?

You can metagame and game the system to the gates of madness and back in both games. BGS alwys leaves massive exploitable weaknesses in their games.

If you play in those ways it wasn't because you "had to". It was because you wanted to.

You choose perks, this has some similarities to the attribute level up function in Morrowind and Oblivion, as you wanted +5 in strength for you sword to do more damage.
However in Oblivion you had to beat up mudcraps or everscamps to get more strength points, in Morrowind it was easier, you just visited an trainer, however I'm pretty sure all the metagaming to get 3x5 in Oblivion was the reasons for attribute removal.

Everybody here planned major skills in Oblivion so they leveled up correctly most probably to made it easier to get 3x5 on level up even if they did not do all the hard work to get them.
it was easy to get 100 in intelligence because of alchemy and conjugation, it was harder to get it in strength. You did not have lock picking as an major as you had the skeleton key, it was also an nice skill to grind to get +5 in athletic as an thief type with archery and acrobatic.

benefit of the perks is that you can choose who you want as long as your skill is good enough, none of the metagaming.
I don't think it was an good idea to remove attributes as they created more difference between races but the new leveling system is much better than the old.

I've played a lot of game systems in my time, and I think the old TES leveling rules were maybe the most a**-backward thing I ever saw. I felt embarrassed for the designers.

Everybody is stuck in some kind of mental loop where they believe that you had to get 3x+5 every single level. You really didn't. My favorite characters were ones who didn't even bother with that nonsense.

If the new system allowed you to be good at everything than I would have agreed with the TC, but it doesn't.

If you level up all skills than you'll have a high level and meet high level enemies but all your skills will be average. You won't be good at anything, because you tried to do everything. Also the perks really make or break how great you are with a skill, and you cant complete all perk trees, only a couple. So there is just no way around it you have to specialize and you still make your own class.

The difference is: instead of picking a class in the beginning, you create one through your actions. It is a better system because you arent stuck with the class you picked/created at the start. So at L10 you can still decide to add heavy armor to your mage and become a battlemage instead. It is more realistic and creates a better game. In real life you can also decide to learn another skill that complements your current skills. You could also decide to learn a completely new trade but often it is hard to still become great at it as you will never have the same experience as those that have done the same trade their entire life.

The new system works similar, and therefore I like it. It is not perfect, and it should be tweaked but in general it should stay.