You appear to be lacking in the imagination department. Much of the point in developing a backstory for your character is to better inform his/her actions in the present. My characters each behave differently as befits the backstory I've created for them. So, in effect, it does make a difference.

"I agree... Oblivion was very limiting in this regard, for example the knight class had both blunt and blade as primary skills, so there was a point in Oblivion where I had to switch my sword weilding knight into a hammer weilding knight in order to continue leveling the charachter, which I did not like. So at least now with the classless system I just decide at the begning one-handed or two-handed, then I can use the perk system to specialize in a sword and I never have to pick up a mace."

His complaint had absolutely nothing at all to do with attributes. He had a class with two weapon skills as primary. His complaint was that it reaches a point where you can't level up anymore (get stronger) if you don't ever practice the blunt skill which he didn't want to do. The same is present in Skyrim. You'll reach a point in one-handed where you can't get any stronger if you don't ever practice the "blunt" skill.



That has absolutely nothing at all to do with whatever my character has done before the game started.



If you'd actually read my posts instead of identifying people arguing on the other side as you and just unleashing whatever strawman you're thinking of you'd know what I wanted. Strawmanning your opponent does nothing but make you look foolish. I want something to differentiate the identical starting characters(assume characters are the same race of course) and to reflect that our characters had lives and actually did stuff before the start of the game. Skyrim's system is absolutely horrible in that regard.



If they have a class system, allow the players to choose no class. If they have point allocation, allow the players to finish the character without distributing any or all of those points. If they have a tag system, allow the players to finish their character without tagging any skills. You can easily make it possible to do both.



*facepalm* I thought it was obvious that I was talking about your characters proficiencies at the start of the game, and not any choices you decide to make after that. Whether your character apprenticed to a mage, joined the Imperial Legion, or whatever, with regards to the character's skill proficiencies at the start of the game, is in effect the same as if your character was born the day before you got on the wagon.

WRONG! and RIGHT!
But this sistem is much more limited than the previous.

You have said nothing that refutes my argument. Indeed, you appear to be avouiding it, with some vigour. You profess to want a class system. A "true" class system limits your character based on race and alignment. Is this what you want? Yes or no will suffice.

I'm avoiding it because I never stated that position and you are fighting a strawman. I profess to want exactly what I said I did, not what you wish to put in my mouth.

Edit: Again, I'll refer you to actually reading my posts instead of arguing with whatever strawman you wish to construct. From a previous post of mine:

" I love characters that break racial molds. The Elven monk I once made was one of my favorite characters. And I loved that little dwarf in Arcanum that shunned technology and instead studied magic. "

[sarcasm]Yes I wish a system that will prevent people from doing something that I love[/sarcasm]

Assuming that your character starts out in the world as an advlt (which is usually the case in RPGs) they should always be defined to some extent, before you set foot in the world.

In a point allocation system, either spread the points evenly or don't use them at all if you want a character who doesn't really specialize in anything right from the start. Problem solved.

Skyrim's way isn't better. You still have the basic skill stats spread evenly, but you're thrown into the world as a generic blob of a character with no real attributes.

Yeh... Much more limited than what?

In Oblivion we had what, 8 major skills that you couldn't change once the character was created.

In Skyrim there are over 60 skills in the magic tree alone. And each skill is actually something unique.

Plus... just like in Oblivion, your weapon, armor, magic, etc skills improve as you gain experience.

Only it makes sense in this game.

7 major skills in Oblivion, out of 21.
Skyrim has 18 skills and a bunch of cardboard perks.

Age does not always equal more wisdom and better judgement.

Change is not always good.

Average advlt has 0 skills in magic, weapon fighting and the like though. You might have skills worth mentioning for sure but not adventuring skills.

So what is it that you want? I confess, I am unsure, because you don't appear to have stated your position all that clearly. You would like a starting fillip to certain skills your character posseses?

Seriously? All of this just to tell me what I already know? That every character of (Insert race here) begins with the same skill point allocation?

And what does that have to do with the argument? I told you that I don't require an arbitrary class designation just to be able to roleplay effectively. In fact, I prefer it without, while you seemed to be arguing that it's somehow necessary, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

Again, from previous posts of mine:

"Couldn't agree with you more. Point allocation, class system, tagging a few skills, whatever. I'd just like something to reflect that our characters have existed and led their lives before the opening video pops up."

" I want something to differentiate the identical starting characters(assume characters are the same race of course) and to reflect that our characters had lives and actually did stuff before the start of the game. Skyrim's system is absolutely horrible in that regard. "

Edit:



Yes, exactly what I said in my very first post in this thread.


It's my entire argument, so everything.


"It was a little something that aided roleplaying in an RPG. It made sure pure Mage's, pure Warriors, pure Theives, or any combo you can think of didn't have identical skill proficiencies at start. "

It's not necessary, but it aides in roleplaying. I like things that aide in roleplaying in roleplaying games. If they didn't have anything to aide roleplaying in a roleplaying game I may as well just day dream.

Yeah, but when some of us see a bunch of kids who weren't even a glint in the milkman's eye, let alone grown their first curly hairs before we'd started RPGIng tell us all grandly how an RPG should work, well, let's just say I feel I've earned the right to a little cynical amusemant over it.

You want a look at the "serious" RPG'ers? We're it.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, if you don't remember picking up "The Bard's Tale" minty fresh from one of the few computer stores around when it came out, don't lecture me on what an RPG is.








Nah, I'm just being crotchety. Evberyone has their own opinion on what an RPG is. Sadly though, most people have never really played a true RPG, and no matter how much I do love TES, it is NOT a true, RPG. It's just, not. Or is it...?

NOW GET OFF MY $%#@ING LAWN!

You touched a good point there.
Beside the system being weak in design, the worst of all is your chained to begin in a closed archtype as Bosmer are archer, orcs are heavy armored no magic user, high elves are magic users and so on... And to complete the package, skills are pushed down your troat you wanting them or not: magic fire attack, magic healing...
So you already begin as any ass and not the way you envision your character.

Another point that is there since Morrowind came to console, is the absolute priority to catter any kind of gamer, or, in other words, tranfor the TES serie in a shapeless generic open world action game were "RPG" is restricted to go left right front or backpedal accept a mission or not, swing weapon A or cast spell B, but that not RPG at all. Or you ll call Far cry 2 and STALKER rpgs ? Or even Diablo series like open world.

What TODD did since Morrowind which he wasnt director of anything (thank god) is selling TES soul in name of casual gamers. And using his awfull gameplay design as a justification to change everything this path.
I really don t thing that any future game can be more generic than Skyrim, looking at it, i can t see what could be watered down anymore, the diference between Dark messiah and Skyrim are very thin.

Cardboard perks?

Like backstab bonuses, sneak bonuses, crafting, and like over 200 things you can improve, add, and change.

As opposed to the skills in Oblivion that never changed. Ever.
And you think Oblivions way is better.

Wow

These are largely meaningless choices, and again, not a true class system in any way. I was going to call this a bastardised class system, but it's not even that. Now, were it to reflect in higher MAXIMUM skills your char could attain, then, I could possibly get behind this, but as your suggestion stands... why? To what end? For mine, all this would give you would be a couple less levels at end game to level up in if you stuck hardcoe to your RP.

The average human from Earth as 0 skill in magic, you mean.

As for weapon skills... i'd argue that pretty much all advlt humans or advlt human-like fantasy beings have the capacity to wield weapons, Your problem is you're looking at the label "skill" as only meaning good/proficient, when really, skills are just there to make your character as uniquely defined as possible. At low levels, this can reflect how poor and inept your character is at certain things.

Oblivion to Skyrim wasn't much of a transition where classes were concerned. With a few lacking UI visuals aside, it works pretty similar.

I've only played one character. She started with a boost in illusion. That's presumably what they teach at Thalmor approved racially pure schools. She doesn't care. She is more interested in restoration and alchemy. She did that stuff in her free time. She didn't start with a boost in alchemy. Has this disparity between interests and education spoiled my enjoyment of playing the role of a healer/alchemist at all? No, not in the slightest.
We can argue all day, but it all comes down to personal tastes. Some people just want prior classes, whether they matter or not, some people don't give a damn, and I am firmly one of those who thinks a few paltry bonuses do not represent a previous career at all, or matter, except to make the player feel their expectations of 'what makes a proper rpg' based on previously played games have been met.

I want, nay, DEMAND, the Bear Grylls class. First sign of thirst, I'm drinking my own pee.

hardcoe mode indeed.....

What good would a sneak bonus do? I was evading vampires with 20 sneak and no perks. By standing still.

Backstab bonuses? how is that unique?

Crafting bonuses? hahahaha that's the epitome of cardboard cutoutness. Especially because the armor cap is so low that most of the smithing ones become irrelevant.

Try these for character-defining perks:
Lady Killer
Child at Heart
Cannibal
Solar Powered
Nerd Rage

THOSE were perks. And I only ever used 2 of them. Nothing in Skyrim feels like it makes me unique. It's just an oversized checklist of tropes. Excuse me for not being happy with that.

You forgot the greatest perk of all. Ever.

Bloody Mess.

I consider it a must have, and was disappointed it wasn't in Skyrim. Srs.

I disagree with you, now because an idiot think he can fly, it doesn t mean that he will.
See, nature is very wise, if an idiot think he can fly and throw himself out of a cliff, he ll die.
Unfortunatly, in game market its the oposite, the more idiots screem knowledge, more power is given to them.

RPG has roots, meaning, reasons to be and background. Its not because people label features and games as RPGs that they are.
But in the industry, RPG has become COOL, so anyhting is labeled RPG to please the crowd, Hurray to MKT and lack of knowledge.

I have yet to miss it