Always took Bloody Mess. It just didn't have a lot of value in the context of the argument. It's one of those bland +damage perks... with a fun side effect.

I don't miss it, not even a little bit.

I see a lot of experienced "RPG'ers" who confuse RPG elements with Adventure game elements, just as a lot of younger RPG'ers do.

Then there's the bunch who come out with crap like "if it isn't turn-based, it's not an RPG".



I'm not accusing anyone here of that... just in my experience, older gamers can be just as ignorant when it comes to defining RPGs as gamers born in the 90s.

The big problem I see from not having classes is that your character levels too fast because if you use what you would consider "minor skills" like Oblivion had you still level from them, and rather quickly I might add. Maybe I want to make potions or iron daggars for a living but doing so levels your character really fast then the world is tough and your still a wimp. So your forced to choose a bunch of base perks like "make armor 20% better" and "does 20% more damage" just to stay alive and keep up with the NPCs. It limits your role playing somewhat. In Oblivion I could make 1000's of potions and become wealthy and be level 1 for as long as I wanted to, as long as alchemy was a minor skill.

The minor problem I see with it is that it feels like they don't want you to make any tough choices at all in Skyrim. Do what you want but it doesn't matter. You can change standing stones whenever you want. You can use any skill. Racial bonuses are a disadvantage because your favorite skills are already higher than they should be, meaning your favorite skills are already advanced, so you get less leveling for using your favorite stuff.

I can't say the new system is a step backwards, but they should have left major and minor skills in the game by allowing you to pick a class, or at least allowed a class if you wanted it. Make it so your minor skills cost 2 perk points to unlock and they level slower.

I already have a mage, a thief, an assassin, a barbarian warrior (that wears that fur armor thingy, Conan much ) a paladin, a summoner...etc

I think I'm good

The OP doenst seem to have much imagination.... why asking for roleplay? The leveling and customizing features of skyrim gave us a lot of new possibilities. Do you need to choose MAGE option to make a mage character?! You can even roleplay the mage creating, by using and training the very skills you'll have as a class...

BINGO! I removed the new system comment, because its the cause of the problem...no wait the cause it the lack of skill of Bethesda team to do things right, the new system is the consequence of their own inabilities, and worse not even this systemwas done right. Next time Bethesda wan tto doa PERK system they should call Blizzard as a consultant team. next time they do Crafting they should call NWN 1 team as consultant, Next time they do grafic call the guys that have done the job to BF3 as consultant, next time they want to do an interesting set of quest or main quest call Morrowind team as consultant... wait what are they here for anyway, try another team.

I never said I wanted a "true class" system though. I don't see why it should effect the maximum skill; although, I always thought they should've done that with attributes. Applying racial bonus/malus to the maximum and not the current. The only purpose really is immersion. It would give the illusion that your character had a life and did stuff before the start of the game instead of just throwing a blank slate identical to the other blank slates at you.



You might be interested in a little game called Postal

See, I say everyone has different opinions on what an RPG is, and someone disagrees with me on that! Those casual gamers again. I blame them.

Look, to everyone out there who has the imgination and the sense of wonder they had as kids enough to play this game, and enjoy it for what it is, and to RPG it... good on you! I'm sure you're all having as much fun as I am, no matter your playstyle. The rest of you? PHTHHHHHHBBBB.

Don t confound use of imagination with Roleplay... the limit of your boundaries as many do the "The game is not crappy, is that doesn t have imagination", is the game being useless because you can imagine everything.

RPG settings are strict definition of a fantasy world, with rules coherence etc, and freedom inside parameters. When those boundaries melt you end up with something like skyrim a melted cheese, Something generic amorph and greasy.

If things aren't changed, people will say "Skyrim is just an expansion with updated graphics." And they wonder why they should pay $60.00 US for that.

Hence, major changes to follow-on games are a must. Not necessarily in all follow-on games, i.e., FPS often don't have major changes in the "working" parts of the game, just in the storyline and presentation.

Besides, if they didn't change anything, we'd still be using Morrowind (or earlier games') conventions in the game - and that's not something I remember fondly.

For starters, don't use "immersion". It's become, by far and away, the most overused word on these forums, and a buzzword for "I don't like it so it;s rooned my immershuns". I see it, my eyes tend to glaze over.

Secondly, the reason I bring up maximums is because that WOULD truly define your char. A warrior, for example, may get 120 max in weapons and armour skills, whereas a mage would get a similar bonus towards mage skills. See? True character distinction, albeit not a true class system, so really, a bit half assed.

If you're going to call for a class system, don't do it half cocked. Go all the way. True classes. Based on races and alignments. Otherwise, I just consider it a not serious request.

You say you don't want a true class system, I just think... what's the point? Your way, zero effect on my gameplay because my character ends up no different.




Just heading out into the desert to have a drink. They should have implemented this into FO:NV.

Your lack of arguments to defend your opinion is impressive.
The main problem i see is the fact you re newby and impressed by what look to us old timers shallow and shoddy. And why does it look that way? Because better has been done in the past.

So, in your logic, shoddy work is justifyed because if the game remain coherent and interesting, its an offense to the consumer and he will not pay. So, then why people stick to COD 36, Rocky 343, and so on ?

Wrong the most overused word is RPG. Immersion come in 2cd or third.

Hehe, sorry, but it's true. When my Altmer that studied magic before coming to Skyrim is exactly the same in skill proficiencies as my Altmer that shunned magic and instead trained to be a thief the game just loses a little bit of that magic.


That actually might be an interesting system. Possibly a mod could do this, when is that CK coming out again?


I'm not worried about the ending here, but the beginning.


Oh, that drinking your piss. Actually yeah that would've been cool.

To take your example of a policeman not be being a firefigher and vice versa, The guy who turned out to be a policeman was not born one he developed skills over time and made choices that made him into that person, could he have made a different choice sure in fact he still can, he could wake up tomorrow and think "hell I want to be a fireman" and there is nothing in this world that would stop him from training to do just that. Yes people are classed by what they do but in the real world this is flexable and I think that is what skyrim offers.

I think your definition of RPG is right, in skyrim the fantasy world is very coherent, and the rules, i think, are too. But you're wrong about "The game is not crappy, is that doesn t have imagination", i dont think that. I like games that allow me to DO THINGS that i imagine, design different characters type to roleplay. You can see this trend in other rpgs systems and games, they are leaving this mage/warrior/thief thinking behind.

Remove quite simply to streamline the game.

While dedicated RPG fan finds interest in the limitation of class and character systems and might play several character types just to play with the possibility this creates.........

A more casual player finds that choices they make at the very start of a game that may then limit them later, highly frustrating and annoying.

As Bethesda is in place to make as much money as possible, by making popular games that appeal to as many people as possible, not to make "the perfect RPG", they have been steadily simplifying many aspects of the game.

If you are the kind of person that has the attention span and interest to master the complextities it's a crying shame. I think a lot of people's complaints about the game come from it being far too easy for their playing style, they lack a sense of achievement from the game, lose interest because there really are very little implications to the choices they make in game (equally applicable to how you interact with NPCs and dialogue options).

It's just the way it is....... if you want a complex game you'll have to find a small developer starting out, where the love and passion for the product is still there and they are creating the game they would like to play, rather than a major title that has been compromised from start to finish by commercial concerns.

And people were wondering why I was bringing up the "born the day before you got on the wagon" argument. You're argument right here presumes that we were in fact born the day before we got on the wagon.


It doesn't though. Skyrim's policeman turned fireman will never be an effective fireman because he already spent the majority of his perks on policeman skills.

Yes. I am a newby to playing RP... BWAHAHAHAHAHA. I really tried to finish that seriously. I really did.

The class system as proposed by you is half-assed and irrelevant. has zero effect on my character at end-game. or through the whole game, for that matter. You want serious RPGing? True class system.


See above. Zero end-game effect, Negligible in-game effect. Serious RPGing! Bring on true classes. Why are we not demanding our characters be locked into (and out of) certain skills at start up?

Are any of you guys who argue for classes really serious about this or what? Anyone? Bueller?

I don't quite understand that though in practise. In Oblivion I chose the class of Knight, and then my character ended up becoming what was effectively a battlemage with light armor, a sword and spellcraft. So the original class didn't really offer anything or limit me and seemed rather pointless as gameplay choices defined my character.

If you want a class in Skyrim why not just type it as part of the character name? Like J'mirr the Thief or Casius the Knight, and then just concentrate on the appropriate skills for the type of class you want to become? In Skyrim you are really starting off as a commoner with no class training and evolve through adventure into one.
I do love pre-defined classes in some games like Dragon Age where you have a group of specialised companions which develop in different directions, but the TES series is more about mixing up any class combination you want through your choice of skills.

I'm a dedicated RPG fan, and i love skyrim, and there are others that are with me. Its not a matter of casual vs hardcoe players, why everything comes to that?! Its a matter of the kind of rpg system you like more, its not this not caring about making the "perfect rpg". And yes, there are a lot of rpgs systems and they are all rpgs, we use the term even when doing some theraqeutic works, and there is nothing wrong with it. RPG is not a especial world for special people, sorry.

Yet a large roleplaying effect.


Serious anti-classers. Classes define skills that someone uses and differentiates them from others. Bring on true no-classes. Why are we not demanding our characters have no skills at all and be cookie-cutter replicas of each other identical in all respects except for how they look?

Are any of you guys who argue against classes really serious about this or what? Anyone? Bueller?

I'm on the fence about no classes. At first I liked the idea thinking it would add more variety. But each system has it's pluses and minuses.

In Skyrim you can play how you like and develope your "class" as you play instead of deciding ahead of time. This way, you can't mistakenly choose a skill that you don't like at creation and be stuck or reroll. At the same time, you can choose perks that you realize later were a mistake and your stuck or reroll. Or you might be able to live with them if there weren't too many perks chosen you don't like. Unfortunately, you can level your character accidentally by buying/selling something even if speechcraft is not a skill that fits your character. Perks restrict your character in some ways so later levels each character can be more unique.

In Oblivion you decided at creation what you wanted to be. If you decided later that you didn't like your choices you could continue to play and level up other skills to fit your playstyle. But if too many of those skills were not major skills you would level really slow (which I guess would be good with OB level scaling system). You could still be a viable character no matter what your major skills were. But if your major skills were skills you didn't want (kind of goes against RP) you were forced to raise them anyway so your character could level. In the end you could be a "master" of all trades if you wish.

Overall, I think Skyrim's system is better. Imagine if you had major skills in Skyrim. You could not select any of the crafting skills and level them up to 100 and still be a level 1 character. Yikes!

Edit: They could have kept a "class" system in Skyrim, but have the major skills work kind of like Standing Stones. All skills would contribute to leveling, but major skills moreso. But I'm fine with how it is.