There was never anything wrong with the `Class System`. : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Instead, now you tell the game what your character is good at, just by doing it and developing it.

You want to worry about who your character was? Pull up a word document and write your character's backstory. It's as simple as that.

Can't see how picking a class or creating one is something my game would do for me. If I wanted to be a thief then I would select that class and if I wanted to be a warrior I would select the warrior class. If I wanted a hybrid then I'd make a class myself.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:09 pm

Do you actually play oblivion? Do you know that, training your major skills from your class actually hurts you because enemies scale faster? Do you know that a fair number of people actually choose skills they DON'T use as their major skills to avoid leveling?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Under_Leveling

What does Oblivion's broken leveling system have to do with the fact that someone who practised magic their entire lives shouldn't have the exact same skill proficiencies as someone that scorned and never used magic?

I don't need a pointless class-designation system to allow me to roleplay.

Sure, if you wish to roleplay someone that was born the day before you got on that wagon.

The class system is basically forbidding you any change.... With the class system, that kind of short-sighted vision of the world is set to rule. That's horrible.

Actually that's how it is now with the perk system. Good luck being a painter after you spent all your perks in football skills.

Sure a great thing. As you like to link it to reality, did you choose your profession in the craddle? Did you really take the first profession you wanted to be as a child?

Our characters weren't born just prior to getting on that wagon. They had their entire lives before that.

You do realize that in past games, even if your character "spent his whole life studying magic", he still started at level 1, and was totally incompetent in his skills, correct???

I never said it was perfect, but something is better than nothing.

Just another baseless complaint about Skyrim that has no actual validity in reality.

Yeah, how dare I wish to maintain roleplaying integrity in a supposed RPG?!? That's totally baseless! I may as well complain about not being able to jump at all in a platformer game.

Yeh... Cuz in Oblivion, when I picked "Assassin" I was immediately much more deadly attacking with a dagger than a mage...... oh, wait....

When did I ever say you could make your class and then be a grandmaster and never have to raise another skill point again? It was a little something that aided roleplaying in an RPG. It made sure pure Mage's, pure Warriors, pure Theives, or any combo you can think of didn't have identical skill proficiencies at start.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:08 am

I just want to say this...

I read alot of people saying that compared to oblivion, skyrim is set up to allow (i'll quote OP here) "It `s the kid thing of wanting to be good at EVERYTHING" But infact its the complete opposite. And here's why
In oblivion you gain the perks automatically when your skills reach 25/50/75/100 which by completion allowed a player to obtain 100 in all skills which in turn allowed you to gain all perks in the game.... 100% master of everything

Skyrim works differrently... skill number only counts to roughly half of a skills potency. Which means if you got all skills to 100 you would actually only have less than 50% maximum potency. Add on the limited number of 80 perks and considering thats out of 251 brings you up to less than 70% total maximum potency in all skills. So this means you will never be able to become "master of all" as most of the effictiveness is in the perks.

But all of this can change drastically with the enchanting/smithing/alchemy bonuses which basically improve the potency of any skill you choose. but my argument is still valid as we are talking about classes and not exploitation.

Also i'd like to add, just as others have said. You don't need a box ingame to determine your class. All of my characters have a predetermined class before i play and i know what skills/perks i'm going to use. the main benefit of this "classless" system is for those players who are more spontaenious. It makes it easy to start as one class then decide later down the line they'd like to change to a slightly different class. its like building your class the more you play. this was completely impossible in oblivion because only major skills counted toward level up which means you HAD to use those skills if you wanted to level up.

i think that covers my thoughts on the topic

I agree... Oblivion was very limiting in this regard, for example the knight class had both blunt and blade as primary skills, so there was a point in Oblivion where I had to switch my sword weilding knight into a hammer weilding knight in order to continue leveling the charachter, which I did not like. So at least now with the classless system I just decide at the begning one-handed or two-handed, then I can use the perk system to specialize in a sword and I never have to pick up a mace. This "classless" system if that is what you want to call it, offers more opportunity for true role-playing within the game... what I do at charachter creation is just pick one crafting skill and then any other 5 skills that will utilize perks. I can use the other skills, but I cannot place perks in them... yes advancing my "non-primary" skills will advance my level, but should they not do that... if you are a police detective, at some point getting better at typing might make you slightly better at your job... because you will become more proficient with filing your reports... though typing 40 words per minute is not a requirement to be a detective.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:35 pm

Sure, if you wish to roleplay someone that was born the day before you got on that wagon.

Presumably you're familiar with the roleplaying concept of "filling out your own backstory?"

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:29 am

How does it force you into similar ways of progression?

I have 3 characters that have completely different skills, different attitudes, different viewpoints, and have done things a lot differently than one another.

You apparently have locked yourself into a certain play style.

You either have to take smithing, or enchanting. or everything in the game will hurt you badly, alternately it will take you bloody ages to kill your enemy. and I just dont like sitting there pounding on the same bad guy while running away from him for ten minutes.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:30 am

I agree... Oblivion was very limiting in this regard, for example the knight class had both blunt and blade as primary skills, so there was a point in Oblivion where I had to switch my sword weilding knight into a hammer weilding knight in order to continue leveling the charachter, which I did not like. So at least now with the classless system I just decide at the begning one-handed or two-handed, then I can use the perk system to specialize in a sword and I never have to pick up a mace. This "classless" system if that is what you want to call it, offers more opportunity for true role-playing within the game...

This is exactly what you have to do in Skyrim as well. One-handed will only go up to 100 skill. That's 10 perks. There are 15 perks in the tree if you want to take everything except the perks that have to do with maces and axes, 12 if you don't want to dual wield. Either way you'll have to level "blunt"(or whatever) to max out your "blade" skill.

Presumably you're familiar with the roleplaying concept of "filling out your own backstory?"

Yes, no matter the background I come up for my character he will be identical with any other character of the same race at start though; eventhough, they may have done radically different things and practiced radically different skills. It is no different than having every single character be born the day before they got on the wagon.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:48 am

I didnt like the class system that much D:
I think skyrims system is more of a "role play" thing.
Like its never too late for your warrior character to become a mage.
But again you could do that in oblivion too,But you could never level up

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:59 am

I didnt like the class system that much D:
I think skyrims system is more of a "role play" thing.
Like its never too late for your warrior character to become a mage.
But again you could do that in oblivion too,But you could never level up

And in Skyrim you'll have already wasted your perks on all the warrior skills and have little left to spend in magic skills. I really don't see much difference here. At least before you weren't missing out on ~90% of the power of the skills you wished to change to.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:07 pm

Yes, no matter the background I come up for my character he will be identical with any other character of the same race at start though; eventhough, they may have done radically different things and practiced radically different skills. It is no different than having every single character be born the day before they got on the wagon.

Look, what you essentially told me was that without class designation,I can only roleplay a character who was born the day before the opening scene.

And that's simply not true.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:52 am

Look, what you essentially told me was that without class designation,I can only roleplay a character who was born the day before the opening scene.

And that's simply not true.

Ok sorry, I'll reword it. With completely identical starting characters no matter what background you come up for your character it will be effectively identical to if you were born the day before the opening scene.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:53 am

This is exactly what you have to do in Skyrim as well. One-handed will only go up to 100 skill. That's 10 perks. There are 15 perks in the tree if you want to take everything except the perks that have to do with maces and axes, 12 if you don't want to dual wield. Either way you'll have to level "blunt"(or whatever) to max out your "blade" skill.

That's not how the leveling system in Skyrim works. I'm pretty sure that if all you ever do is One Handed and nothing else, once you reach 100 in that skill you'll be close to level 20 or so.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:36 pm

The solution to your complaints are simple. Bring back ye olden style RPG mechanic, where you were limited by your race and alignment. An Evil Orc, for example, could never be a paladin, or a mage. An elf could never be a warrior. An evil human could never be a cleric. That sort of thing.

Or you could, if you wanted to be a properly serious RPGer, decide thse things for yourself. Much the way my imagination did 30 years ago.

Have yourself a ball.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:45 pm

Ok sorry, I'll reword it. With completely identical starting characters no matter what background you come up for your character it will be effectively identical to if you were born the day before the opening scene.

But I don't roleplay "born the day before the opening scene." And why are you droning on about this "born the day before" business? Are you actually trying to argue that because there's no formal class system, then we as players aren't allowed to imagine that our characters might be twenty, thirty, forty, etc. years old by the time the game begins?

Or that our characters can't have led varied lives? Why can't I play a Breton with a background as a housecarl, and then later a Breton with a background as a farmer?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:02 am

Most of the top tier perks are useless. You don't need to move past two or three lower tier ones.

Most, but not all? In the Elder Scrolls forums, it is a common occurrence to find certain skills and perks called useless that some players find useful. In principle -- which is all that matters here -- not being able to acquire all perks means that you cannot master everything. Not being able to do everything is something the OP wants, and is something the OP actually has in Skyrim but does not have in Morrowind or in Oblivion. Ironically, the OP seems to think he isn't so restricted in Skyrim, but thinks he is so restricted in Morrowind and Oblivion.

The OP wants classes to help define and constrain our characters. Fine. Some examples would be nice. In Oblivion, my class name and list of major skills serves as a quick reminder of who and what my character was made to be. I like that aspect of classes. Something else I like, that Oblivion's classes don't provide, is a way to place caps on my skills so I don't have to worry about becoming too proficient in them. Skyrim's perk system, despite its imperfections, lets me set caps, and I appreciate it.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:11 pm

I think the class system is a bit too concrete for most people. It makes sense if you have a party of characters like in Dragon Age or Neverwinter Nights where each one specialists, but in a solo game like Skyrim or Oblivion you tend to find your feet and evolve a play-style naturally as you progress.
In Skyrim you start out without a class and then you build one from scratch based on which skills you use. If you use a sword and magic you end up as a Battlemage, if you use sneak and light armor you will shape yourself into a Thief and so on. There is no need to make a decision on that before you even start the game and learn what style you enjoy.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:57 am

That's not how the leveling system in Skyrim works. I'm pretty sure that if all you ever do is One Handed and nothing else, once you reach 100 in that skill you'll be close to level 20 or so.

Umm ok. You'll still have to raise an unrelated skill if you want to max out your one-handed perk tree. Pretty much exactly what brglock was complaining about in the previous games. Either way you'll have to level "blunt" to get stronger.

The solution to your complaints are simple. Bring back ye olden style RPG mechanic, where you were limited by your race and alignment. An Evil Orc, for example, could never be a paladin, or a mage. An elf could never be a warrior. An evil human could never be a cleric. That sort of thing.

Or you could, if you wanted to be a properly serious RPGer, decide thse things for yourself. Much the way my imagination did 30 years ago.

Have yourself a ball.

And what exactly did you snip that gave you the idea that I wanted this? This is a strawman and nothing more. I love characters that break racial molds. The Elven monk I once made was one of my favorite characters. And I loved that little dwarf in Arcanum that shunned technology and instead studied magic.

But I don't roleplay "born the day before the opening scene." And why are you droning on about this "born the day before" business? Are you actually trying to argue that because there's no formal class system, then we as players aren't allowed to imagine that our characters might be twenty, thirty, forty, etc. years old by the time the game begins?

Or that our characters can't have led varied lives? Why can't I play a Breton with a background as a housecarl, and then later a Breton with a background as a farmer?

Effectively: 1 : in effect : virtually

No matter the background you make for your character, in effect it will be no different than if your background was that you were born the day before you got on the wagon.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Umm ok. You'll still have to raise an unrelated skill if you want to max out your one-handed perk tree. Pretty much exactly what brglock was complaining about in the previous games. Either way you'll have to level "blunt" to get stronger.

Which is still much better than having to train 2 minor skills for each major skill to get the best stat increases. Or to train one unrelated skill to 100 to get the missing stat increases for the stat you want to max which is a ratio of 1 unwanted skill training for each wanted skill training.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:37 am

They're catering to players who treat roleplaying games like action-adventure games and just want to decide what their character looks like then dive straight into the world doing a little bit of everything.

It isn't so much the lack of a class system that bothers me though. It's the lack of attributes and a simple point allocation system at the start of the game when you create your character. If they had that, it really wouldn't be so bad if they then allowed the player to decide which skills they wish to specialize in as they play the game. Although skill progression should be a lot slower in my opinion, and the role of perks less significant.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:49 am

It was something wrong with the classes in MW and OB: It didn't matter.
In DF it mattered though and if they bring back something based on that I wouldn't complain.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:01 am

Which is still much better than having to train 2 minor skills for each major skill to get the best stat increases. Or to train one unrelated skill to 100 to get the missing stat increases for the stat you want to max which is a ratio of 1 unwanted skill training for each wanted skill training.

Where did min/maxing come from exactly? This has nothing to do with what I was addressing. I was merely pointing out that brglock was complaining about something that is still very much present and not alleviated by Skyrim's system at all. Not to mention that his problem was not present if you made your own class and didn't put skills you never wanted to use in your major/minor skillset.

They're catering to players who treat roleplaying games like action-adventure games and just want to decide what their character looks like then dive straight into the world doing a little bit of everything.

It isn't so much the lack of a class system that bothers me though. It's the lack of attributes and a simple point allocation system at the start of the game when you create your character. If they had that, it really wouldn't be so bad if they then allowed the player to decide which skills they wish to specialize in as they play the game. Although skill progression should be a lot slower in my opinion, and the role of perks less significant.

Couldn't agree with you more. Point allocation, class system, tagging a few skills, whatever. I'd just like something to reflect that our characters have existed and led their lives before the opening video pops up.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:02 am

Where did min/maxing come from exactly? This has nothing to do with what I was addressing. I was merely pointing out that brglock was complaining about something that is still very much present and not alleviated by Skyrim's system at all. Not to mention that his problem was not present if you made your own class and didn't put skills you never wanted to use in your major/minor skillset.

I don't see how not putting Blunt and H2H in his major/minor skills would help him get his Blade capabilities to the max which require you to get 100 Str which you cannot do using only Blade short of using item enchants or temporary buffs.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:19 pm

Couldn't agree with you more. Point allocation, class system, tagging a few skills, whatever. I'd just like something to reflect that our characters have existed and led their lives before the opening video pops up.

You have the standing stones, they appear within less than a minute from when you exit the tutorial sequence, pick thief - there′s your tag!

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:12 am

They're catering to players who treat roleplaying games like action-adventure games and just want to decide what their character looks like then dive straight into the world doing a little bit of everything.

It isn't so much the lack of a class system that bothers me though. It's the lack of attributes and a simple point allocation system at the start of the game when you create your character. If they had that, it really wouldn't be so bad if they then allowed the player to decide which skills they wish to specialize in as they play the game. Although skill progression should be a lot slower in my opinion, and the role of perks less significant.

Well, I'm actually quite a hardcoe roleplayer... have been for several decades... and in my opinion this system adds a lot to the roleplaying experience.

I've been a roleplayer longer than most of you have been alive.

Learn to adapt... change is good.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:15 am

And what exactly did you snip that gave you the idea that I wanted this? This is a strawman and nothing more. I love characters that break racial molds. The Elven monk I once made was one of my favorite characters. And I loved that little dwarf in Arcanum that shunned technology and instead studied magic.

That's how a true class system works. If you're going to advocate a class system, don't bastardise it for the "casually-serious" RPGers.

Class, plus alignment. Your dwarf can never, ever, be a mage. Ever.

Don't give us all some horsecrap about how "it's how it worked in Morrowind". True class system. Bring it on! Make our character creations REALLY mean something.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:52 pm

They're catering to players who treat roleplaying games like action-adventure games and just want to decide what their character looks like then dive straight into the world doing a little bit of everything.

What about the players that consider the role playing aspect of playing some poor guy of no noticeable adventuring skills thrown against his will in a life of adventure and has to find he's path and learn the trade on the fly?

Oh no! You cannot role play that! In every single RPG the players must be experienced adventurers in their own field and will never start a game with someone that didn't train in any adventurer class in the first place!