You say it is linear. I can think of 9 different leveling experiences simply due to class and then another 16 different zones that are massive that give 5 or more quest at a time that can be done in any order. That tauren can start in orc lands if he feels like it. Nothing is going to stop him from going to molten core. Will he die instantly when he gets there? Absolutely.

Open world does not = stupid world. Where somehow a boss who has been alive for 200 years and in lich form is as strong as your level 10 warrior that happened to stumble onto his temple grounds. He should rip you a new [censored] and teach you that an open world does not equal a "your level" world.


And on the flip side of this. There should be places where the enemy is complete trash and a push over. Because that is how reality works. There will be things that curvestomp you and things that get curvestomped.

Notice how you just confirmed what I said in the original post? This game has extremes. You are either massively overpowered due to those jobs or severely underpowered. In order to get to the median in which we call a balanced and fun experience, we must make rules for ourselves because the game scales off our level which has nothing to do with our actual POWER.

Replies are in red. I really don't know why you would compare Skyrim to WoW.

This isn't an mmo, it's an rpg. So stop comparing it to stuff like WoW and Runescape.

That said, I do agree - level scaling should just be removed completely. It only causes problems no matter who you are and it makes your high level characters feel just as weak as they did at level 1. I'm sure in a year or two an overhaul mod will fix this, but I still wish level scaling would just go away.

I was over-powered because I barely left the first area and powered my smithing. That's going to be the same in any game where you can get access to gear that is above your level. It's not a matter of leveling scaling being the problem, it's a problem of me going hard on the crafting. That's my fault, because it was my choice. As it should be.

Godman I've been harping on about a certain misconception of yours for a few days now. This idea that mages are weak in this game. I'm playing on master difficulty and having an absolute blast.

Yes the spells cost a lot of money, yes you have to do some enchanting, yes you have to drink a potion or two in boss fights, but in no way am I anywhere close to being miserable. I actually feel sorry for the melees playing dual-wield that are 1-shotting dungeon bosses. Do not feel sorry for me.

One of these days these claims that mages are weak in this game are going to compel me to learn how to use the youtubes and show you guys just how miserable playing a pure mage on Master difficulty in Skyrim actually is. (it isn't)

Errr this is not an MMO, DURRR? Two different games!!!

Seriously though, why does Skyrim not being an MMO have anything to do with whether certain game balance issues are valid? Surely the need to balance the game is a valid issue (at least to a significant number of players), and the effectiveness of balancing techniques doesn't really depend on whether the game is an MMO or not... Bethesda is never going to properly balance Skyrim because it's a lot of work and they just don't really care, but I can't wait for the inevitable mods that will make it (more) balanced, many of them probably drawing from what's been done in WoW and other games. Not everything in WoW applies, but it's a seriously well-balanced game considering its complexity, and there are a lot of good ideas there. After all, what are Skyrim's crafting systems if not copies of those found in most MMOs? You craft, you level up, you unlock new recipes, you craft more junk etc... You can buy the mats, or you can go out and find them. It's all the same. It even includes the incentive to power level with the cheapest items available. It just also happens to be underdesigned and imbalanced in Skyrim's case. I'm not saying Skyrim is bad - I think it's great! It's just that Bethesda has never been good at balancing past level 1, and they are not going to start now. Some players like balanced games, and that will for better or worse only happen through mods in Skyrim's case.

As for the level scaling, that's also something that Bethesda aren't going to change. I personally think it's ultra-terrible, but obviously other people think it's great. I feel that a relatively static world is much more believable and ultimately much more enjoyable to play in. It removes the issues of disincentivising the use of non-combat skills (in Skyrim, training persuasion or lockpicking WILL make your character worse in the majority of situations). It does mean that parts of the game are inaccessible to players of lower levels, but I find that fun. It's especially fun to try and defeat enemies that are a fair bit stronger than your character, by using potions, daily powers, scrolls etc., and just by playing well. And guess what? In a well-constructed static world, doing that will sometimes let you get artifacts or whatever that you wouldn't normally get! It feels great to face a real challenge and to be suitably rewarded. I found that when I played through Skyrim on Master (as a mage and then a warrior), I rarely needed potions and I never bothered to use scrolls. The level of difficulty was nearly constant, and there was almost no variation in the way I played the game. I got better and better items, but the enemies got stronger and stronger at the same rate. Nothing really changed, except what my character looked like.

Some people argue that it doesn't make sense for the player to get stronger while the bandits just sit on their arses and remain at level 1. But surely it doesn't make sense for the average skill in combat of a lowly bandit to increase with time. It's not like you'd expect your average Skyrim bandit to be much stronger than one from 200 years in the past... The game takes place over a pretty short amount of time, and the Dragonkin is an exceptional individual who is (probably) working constantly to improve their abilities. Of course they're going to progress faster than most of the creatures in the world around them.

Those complaining must truly svck. I power leveled smithing and unless ur dumb, if you do that, you should theoretically have the best gear in the game, which should offset the disparity of strength between you an enemies, they don't have dragon armor and you do, what's not fair?

I play on expert and with light armor and I have every perk in smithing tree so u know my combat trees are looking light and I have no issues. Level 37 right now. Every time you level up you should have SOMETHING to show for it. Better gear, better pickpocketing to steal money for better gear, etc, or combat skills. The game is actually quite easy

If you are leveling your character by grinding so as to have the best armor as soon as possible, you are not playing the game. You are making armor. Which is fine, but the game is going to spank you for not being prepared to use that pretty set of gear you just made. If you were playing the game, then your combat skills would be up to snuff as you leveled.

To your statement that there are no off limits areas at low levels, go up in the mountains at less than level 10, even with normal combat skill progression, and go play with an Ice Troll.

Can somebody explain to me why level scaling is a balance issue?

Back in my day, you didn't have levels, you had hearts! And if you had a bunch of hearts, you were harder to kill! But if you had full hearts, your sword would.. shoot swords!

Honestly. Remember your childhood. How did we go from zelda to wanting to be invulnerable to everything once we "out leveled" it?

Its a completely MMO concept. And honestly it doesn't even work well in MMOs. Borderlands on playthrough 2.5 is a MUCH better implementation of what an MMO should be like, where you can't out-level the content, its always challenging.

Read the post. Try again. This was mentioned as one of the problems. You are either massively overpowered by exploiting the ridiculous crafting system or underpowered by playing legit. To be in the median means you have to follow your own set of rules which you should never have to do in an rpg.

Stop using the words newsflash, nobody in their right mind talks like that.

To address problems with level scaling. Although I think some of the argument here has merit I think some of your examples are contrued by the different mob types. The bandits, Draugr, Necromancers, Rogue Wizards and others are difficult based on name. Regular Bandits, Apprentice Wizards, Plain Draugr and Dragons are all easily destroyable mobs. They arent hard and dont take much effort to kill. However, when you start seeing Bandit Lords, Outlaws, Draugr Wights, Overlords, and Blood Dragons, they are much tougher foes tht require a bit more effort in kiilling.

Simply put, with the level caling, there is also random mob chances. You may have simply entered a dungeon filled with the higher tiered mobs. Ive found that in fact, some dungeons become rather dull and boring because there are too few challenging mobs. Ramping up the difficulty only gives them more hp and really doesnt challenge the player.

Unfortunately, the previous system, going back to Oblivion and Morrowind was worse. Oblivions 95% level scaling degenerated the gameplay and only certain mob types became a challenge while Morrowinds static system made the game too easy all around at high levels. This is an Open RPG. the gameplay enjoyabiltiy should not be sacrificed because you want to experience the game at a different level. This is hte difference between leaving the main town at level 1 with no skills or l;evel 14 in full Daedric grinded armor. Atleast you both can say there is a challenge.

Parts of this game are all not scaled if you noticed. The named undead wizards, Giants and most creature types remain static in their abilities. Its simply the basic dungeonm mobs and rabble which are scaled so that every event can be some sort of struggle.

Honestly, while I do think there is some good anolysis, part of your argument is wanting to g back to the Morrowind style of leveling and overpowering mobs.

I dont supportthis, that was boring and was one of the largest grip[es with the game. Welcome to level scaling.

MMOs are better balanced than this game. The best way to enjoy Skyrim is to not craft

That makes no sense. Because I decided to do something that is available to me while not exploiting the clear bad design of dagger spamming, i should be punished?

Here is a thought and it might be crazy I know.....NO EXP from crafting. There. Now your explanation makes sense. Because smithing IS playing the game. I shouldnt be punished for simply crafting some gear. That makes no sense. I shouldnt gaina level because i sold some bandit gear. Now I have lost that combat potential from that level up because every enemy in the game got stronger physically from me speaking to a shop keeper and not gaining a single ounce of muscle.

I think when people say not to just max out smithing/enchanting/alchemy most of them probably aren't saying you should never do that, but that you should balance out leveling those by leveling a combat skill at the same time too. You know, "you get better at what you do" and all that.

Just to add some balance to leveling your skills. Combat skills with non-combat and defensive skills. (Though that's only really if you want to participate in the combat at any point in time.)

Im level 32 and Ive been riding around the western part of skyrim and all I see in the wild are wolves. And when I get to a fort half of the enemies are still using generic "bandit" or "forsworn" names, no prefix to indicate that they've gotten stronger. Level scaling seems to me to be random as hell. Ive also ran into two bandit chiefs who were wearing some pretty nice stuff, but that seems to be more the exception than the rule. So yes, regardless of what level you are, or what perks you have, theres still plenty of easy stuff out there to fight even if you've yet to swing a sword. The game is RANDOM as....key word being random. Its not like Oblivion where you can not ignore the level scaling because its in every dungeon right from the start.

I think some of these guys just play through the game and notice a few irregularities and accept it as the gospel and start preaching. Not so. Every player is probably going to have a much different experience based on playstyle. Me, so far Ive been doing side quests, Ive made my major skills heavy armor, and one hand sword dual wield. Probably not the most original set up. I mostly dabble in alteration, forgework, alchemy, and archery. But I havent taken a lot of perks in those and Ive only dabbled in them so Ive ran into nothing game breaking. Im playing only on expert level as well, Im saving a master play through for next time. I simply have not had the same experiences as you. I was getting thrashed on early in the game by trolls and bears and stuff when I'd wander a little too far from Whiterun, so I stayed there a bit and quested and did some adventuring. As I said though, that points very much against the level scaling your refering to.

man all these noobs on the boards....just close this

While i find this entire post to be completely ridiculous...(for one everyone on these forums as of late has obviously been playing too much wow...calling for balance...who exactly are you competing against?....All playstyles are equally viable, especially if you take advantage of crafting)



While i would like to see areas with much stronger enemies...i guess you could say giants and mammoths satisfy this to some extent....having different zones for specific level ranges makes the game MUCH MUCH more linear....we will use your wow anology....every time you level....you have to follow the same designated areas each time....while there is more than one area for each level range...the fact that it can never change remains the same....linear.


I dont know if you have actually played skyrim yet but....to craft the high level items the game forces you to level up quite a bit....which is opposite of what you imply.


I did fine killing everything with the flames spell alone pretty much on my mage up to level 27...just had to kite everything around...maybe you just arent as good as you think you are and you want it to be an easier game like wow? Leveling in wow is ridiculously easy...endgame ridiculously easy...arena ridiculously easy.

While Skyrim is obviously not an MMO, the OP does make good points.

I completely agree +1

I think Beth got level scaling right, for the first time.

Skyrim is not a MMO.
Skyrim is not an online game where you play with other people.
Therefore everything you say and have said on this thread is void.

1: Yes, level scaling is needed in TES style open-world RPGs. Why? Because you are supposed too be able too go anywhere and decide for yourself where you ant too start your adventure. No level-scaling leads too zones which again makes it so you can't realisticly go anywhere and do anything. You would have too follow the level 1-10=Riverwood, 11-20=Whiterun etc.

2: I agree, but trash mods in Skyrim does not scale. Why? The trash mods are the ones you typically meet at level one, like the draugr and bandits. They have fixed health, but as you reach higher levels you are more and more likely too meet stronger enemies, AKA you will meet less trash nods.

3: Gameplay balance does not mean Warrior=Mage. Why? If it were the point of two different playstyles would be pointless in the first place. I mean gameplay balance go something like this:

Weapon-and-Shield Warrior: Lowest melee dps, but the highest physical durability due too very effective blocking and armor.

2-handed Warrior: High dph(damage per hit), and is somewhat durable due too armor and some blocking ability.

DW Warrior: Lowest physical defense of the melee types, but still quite durable and it has the highest melee dps.

Archer: Very high dph, but is dependant on using the range and terrain(if pure). Low physical defense.

Assassin: Very low physical defense, but is probably on par with the archer in dph. Rely on stealth too avoid death.

Non-dirct damage Mage: somewhat low dps and dph, but with a combination of minions(summoned or other) and crowd-control too maximize their dot(damage over time). Very low physical defense aided only by certain spells.

Diract damage Mage: Highest dph and dps, but the lowest physical defense.

Hybrids: Too many types too go into detail, but, in short, lowers some of the strengths and adds more versitality. Example: Crusader: lower health, stamina and physical defense than a warrior, but higher versitality due too healing and damage spells. Also: Less perks too optimize offense and defense.

4: I agree that you shouldn't avoid the three crafting skills just because they can be exploited, Mr. Munchkin. However this is not an MMO so why shouldn't characters be able to take on bosses alone? If we couldn't the game would be impossible since it isn't designed for multiplayer.

The leveling system needs work, i admit, but it does not need to be scrapped entirely. I've been playing a character recently that has been consistantly sitting right on the peak of optimum leveling performance, and it's been much more fun than, say, going to one place and wiping everything out with ease, and going to another and getting roflstomped(especially since there wouldn't be any better loot there, anyhow. Because thats how bethesda works.)

What needs work is a way to determine the combat ability of your character and base mobs on that, rather than just the hard level stat.

Here's my input about leveling in general. Remember hours of grinding to get to a certain level with pointless play in games of the past. In this case get me to the action quicker and make it so I can without doing pointless grinding just to level up. Another thing, do I want an easy game I can just run through and one shot everything. I want more challenge but expert doesnt seem hard enough so far and I'm a purist on the difficulty, I choose one and stick to it. I don't scale down for a tough battle and then scale up. I realized in this game that I can choose any quest and go do it with no problem, the only problem I'm afraid of is doing the main quest too fast for obvious reasons. But I think they are on the right track as far as leveling goes.

Your being inconsistent. You can't say spamming daggers and simply making some gear in the same breath.

You expect the game to adjust to you because you exploit it. I have sold quite a bit of stuff and have only gained a few levels in Speech, it has not effected my character progression, so you must really be spamming daggers. Again, that is an exploit that you choose to do.

Why shouldn't crafting count towards leveling, crafting can build a certain kind of character, one that has inherent challenges as you have found out. If you don't like those challenges, build a different kind of character, one that does not spend all their time making and selling daggers. You might like it.

The leveling works if you actually play the game and do some quests and get involved in the story.