As someone who used to play EQ/WoW and primarily just ran around solo doing my own thing. I'll respond to this the same way I used to respond to people in WoW who would say "just play Oblivion if you want to play alone". They are completely different kinds of game. Even if you play an MMO entirely alone it does not play the same as 99% of single player RPGs. I'm not particularly fond of all of the other people in MMORPGs most of the time, but I enjoy the way they play. I also enjoy TES games, comparing them to an MMORPG like WoW is just silly though.

I love Skyrim for the freedom I have while playing it, without the level scaling you lose a lot of that freedom. Most MMOs and most other singleplayer RPGs are not "open world" games. They are less linear games, hiding behind the illusion of being an open world game. By having a couple of choices/branches of where you can go and what you can do. Just being able to go anywhere in the world does not make the game open world, if there's no benefit. If you can go some place in the world at level 1, but can't do anything there until level 50. I don't consider that open world.

The only real accurate comparison I see to MMOs is the attitude a lot of people who play them have, when compared to the attitude I see in people against level scaling. One of the reasons I always lost interest in MMOs and quit playing them when I tried to participate in the end game content, was because it seems that all most people care about is getting new shinies. Making their character noticeably more powerful. Rather than just playing the game to enjoy the experience of playing it. What is this obsession with character progression, or progression period. Personally I've spent countless hours in numerous games reaping lots of enjoyment without needing to make progress. I play a game to enjoy the experience of playing it, not to beat it, not to see myself outlevel everything. To each his/her own, I suppose.

I appreciate most of RP. They give me much insight!

----but-----

OP attracts flames too much, I hope that moderators have mercy on this topic..

Well the OP has a point, just using WoW as comparison was a bad idea, Ultima is much closer to TES series.
Is Ultima classless/skill based? Yes.
Does it have level scaling? No.

Comparing TES to an MMO? Your funny.
Comparing TES to the most desperate and pitiful MMO?....lolwut?

This thread should just be locked.

This game was made to be anti-linear and the character can do anything they feel like even if it is spontaneously going to dawnstar then riften then whiterun and windhelm in a row without even doing a single dungeon or quest or just purely do the main quest first without any side quests or maybe even try to be the master of side quests and never go to the main dungeons until level 40 or whatever.

This game would be downright broken if it didn't have level scaling.

One of the interesting things I've been seeing about those supporting Bethesda's particular take on level scaling in Skyrim is that it's "realistic". Well after a fashion at any rate. Indeed, if one did spend 20 levels gaining skill in pickpocketing, alchemy and enchanting one could reasonably expect to not be up to par with the various and sundry monsters of the countryside. After all, this person has not really done anything to improve their combat viability. On the other hand, someone who avoids power leveling non-combat skills by focusing squarely on defeating bandits and bears in the wilds will likely be better off as things progress. Ultimately the issue is Skyrim can not be "won" through any other means than violence, and as such anyone who spends a whole lot of time failing to build up those essential combat quotas (be they melee or magic oriented) will be sorely unprepared to progress further in the game. Now we can argue about whether there should be other avenues to victory than this, but that's the way things are, and as such it does make logical and reasonable sense that people who neglect to build up those essential combat quotas (be they melee or magic oriented) would suffer the consequences. I would not even seek to argue this with anyone, who would ever ask for things to be more -unrealistic- anyway?

The problem is, this doesn't necessarily make for a good game mechanic. Particularly when making full use of a skill like smithing requires gaining many levels, apart from any power leveling with iron daggers. Indeed, if you want to craft Daedric armor, you're going to spend a lot of time doing things other than stabbing or magicking people (or beasts) to death. This is unavoidable, yet if one wishes to go down this path (as others have said) it's an all or nothing proposition. Trying to do it piecemeal is a recipe for disaster. This is because in Skyrim when you put 5 levels into, say, alchemy, that's 5 levels that your opponents put into getting to be stronger with sword and shield. Each time you gain any sort of increase in your non-combat stats, your competition does just the opposite. So as you sprinkle in speachcraft and enchanting and lockpicking you're slowly but surely making yourself unfit for duty in the field. I should point out further that no unnatural level grinding is required here, just the consistent and pragmatic use of skills other than the deadly arts. Now, since Skyrim's leveling system is not absolute (as Oblivion's was) some of these issues can be masked, that doesn't mean that they aren't there however. In my case, I got my first character to level 15 before realizing my large mix of skill levels had made me too weak to go anywhere or do anything meaningful. Sure, I could kill bandits, but anything above that would slaughter me easily. When I restarted, I made it to level 17 before touching anything other than combat-oriented or combat-related skill sets. I am of course doing better given the new strategy, but the restrictions on what I could do and wanted to do were purely artificial. It may have been quite realistic, but having to put off making potions didn't add anything to my enjoyment of the game. If anything it's a detraction.

Now I think some of this is due to Skyrim being a new game with systems and complexities that have never been field tested. Perhaps things can be tweaked and adjusted so that some of the more egregious stuff gets handled and remedied. So long as a person is avoiding exploitative grinding of levels, then they shouldn't be punished for pursuing a well rounded skill set that's in keeping with a proper RP of their particular character. I shouldn't have to worry that if I barter too much, I'll gain too many levels and thus be too weak against the next bandit outlaw that I see. Particularly so if I really -am- going out and fighting mobs and honing my fighting skills as well. It appears that at least in one sense Bethesda has not learned from Oblivion, because if what I'm hearing is accurate, the enemies you face in the province gain combat stat increases at every turn, even when you do not. I thought surely they would have found a way to moderate that problem from TES IV but perhaps not. And that really is too bad, because it does impose an artificial restriction in one progresses with a character, all the more so now because there are no minor skills and one can't level, say, sneak without worrying about imminent death. Not everyone who finds level scaling problematic is complaining over their failure to exploit a game mechanic without consequence.

So, I guess I've said my peace. Realism does not always equate to fun, and what's logical doesn't always match what's desirable gameplay wise. Who knows if it can be fixed, fortunately what we have now is better than what we got with Oblivion so if nothing else we're moving forward instead of backward. I just want to be able to RP a character with a reasonable mix of skills without fear that in the end I'll be so far behind my enemies that I'll have to quit. A rational and well thought out game plan shouldn't automatically result in failure under any circumstance. And for the record, I do know there is a difficulty slider, I'd prefer not to turn it up or down as I'm not really looking for more or less challenge, just the freedom to do what I'd like to do. In that sense I can identify with the OP and what he's trying to say. Things could be done better, it's all a question of how to proceed and what to fix. I guess we'll see what happens soon enough.

*sigh*

Just can't get through to anyone.

While I enjoyed WoW(Vanilla to WotLK), to say it's the best game of all time is an opinion not fact. Also if it was the best game design of all time then why would you need those balance changes?
Pretty much every MMO nowadays is hugely linear and none are truly open world, there is little choice (though there is a great deal of the illusion of choice).
I am happy WoW exists. I am happy Skyrim exists. People can therefore choose which playstyle they prefer and play the game they want.

Level scaling may not be perfect but it works.
Why the complaints anyway about it all? If you play to become the god of gods keep leveling, after 50 you will start feeling more powerful with each level as the enemies apparantly cease scaling.
Without level scaling there would be no freedom, only a poor illusion of it.

Yeah, play a human thief and then a warrior in BG II. BALANCED AS [censored]. Also, I prefer MW and even Skyrim to BG. Deal with It.

Also, why is that skyrim is attracting a never before seen amount of non RPG players? Sure, every companie's goal is to make money, but MMO players looking for an MMO should play an MMO... I won't go to CoD forums and say "HURR, NOT INMERSIVE", nor I'd dare to say "Morrowind is a bad game 'cause It's got exploits!!!11"

Let me just say something to you mister OP....THIS IS NOT [censored] WOW.

get it into your head OP, every elder scrolls game has been woefully imbalanced in its own way -you're comparing apples and oranges here, a single player game like this doesnt NEED perfect balance because players aren't in competition with each other - you play the game however the hell you want to play it and nobody can tell you you're doing it wrong.

I did not read anything but the topic title. I'm sure this has been stated over and over again. TES is not an MMO. It is a unique game with its unique characteristics. If you want an MMO style, go play one instead of asking for another version of the same game.

Points 1 & 2. [censored] yes. Yes yes [censored] yes. Someone else gets it. [censored] omg.

EDIT I've never played WOW or Runescape or whaatever. I only play single player RPGs.

MW
Fallout 1, 2 & (maybe)3
BG 1&2

Wait.. Did you say that WoW is balanced? My troll-senses are tingeling..

I agree with everything that Visanideth said. Completely accurate as far as im concerned.

The OP's repeated attempts to dish out characters focusing on magic to be subpar is just foolish in my oppinion. The game can be incredibly hard, or incredibly easy depending on how you play it. My first character, a mage, didnt have too much trouble getting through anything except dragon priests. And my main attacks until 20 or so was flame and frostbite. On adept and expert difficulty. Yeah.
If you play a mage on any difficulty higher than novice and expects to just charge into a group of mobs and tank them, think again. A warrior character with heavy armor, a shield and decent restoration skills wouldnt do that. Not if he expected to live afterwards atleast.

And my most recent character have yet to experience one of those "OP summons that ruins the game"; my atronachs are good, but hardly gamebreaking.. Also, ever considered the fact that mages ARENT supposed to be these invincible worldbreakers surrounded by scores of enemies taking next to no damage? Youre wearing a damned robe! If you really have difficulties, spec more into alteration and use wards, much easier. And if that fails.. Change the difficulty.

On-T: 1. So.. You want things to be as they were in morrowind where everything had a specific level. Thats fine, it was an epic experience when you first started and realized, often painfully, that you couldnt go everywhere yet. But when youve outleveled everything however.. Then its basicly running around smashing ants with a greatsword. Level scaling solves this and makes the game enjoyable at a higher level. It have flaws, but it works.
If youre hellbent on comparing WoW and Skyrim; would you REALLY want the world to be as linear as warcraft? Do you think people enjoy Skyrim as much if they were forced to stay in, lets say, the rift area between level 1 and 15 because thats the only place where they can possibly survive, running in and out of every cave/ruin/fort to level combat? I dont. Not to mention; in WoW you can indeed go back and do quests that are far below your level, but there are no reward for doing so other than personal interest. In Skyrim you can just do any dungeon etc. and get better from doing it.

2. Things are different from Oblivion, everything doesnt scale anymore. If you enter a cave at level 5 that cave is always locked to level five. Not to mention that there are different "difficulties" on mobs. A simple draugr for example are far easier than a draugr deathlord.


What you just described is, if drawing another connection with WoW, is like having a hunter melee down mobs or a rogue just using throwing weapons to attack; Its not what the classes were made for. Sure, you can spec into different combat methods, but you are ofcourse less powerfull if you do, but thats your choice. Change the difficulty if its hard to kill things if only speccing speech, lockpicking and thievery. Or reroll. Having it easy when speccing only non-combative perks is like expecting to win a wrestling championship because youre a talented gardener.

3. This is only true if non-exploited mages are bad. Mages usually require a different approach than a warrior, so you cant just charge in and roflstomp everything, but that certainly doesnt make then bad in any way. Learn to think differently like using traps, make them attack other targets or make them turn on eachother. Tadaa!

4. You ARE aware of that this is a single player game, right? And that you through various console commands can change more or less anything? Hell, you can raise skills, change your level, add items etc. but in the end, who does that hurt other than yourself? Since its a single player game, balance doesnt require constant attention like in a MMO. Leveling smithing/enchanting is hardly bad for your experience. I mean, if youre focusing on bettering your gear, youre taking the opportunity out of bettering other skills, so instead of putting perks in, say, one handed weaponry to increase your damage, youre putting perks into skills into smithing to create and and refine your gear which is both a damage and a defensive boost, so that argument is rather invalid if I may say so, since there are few RPG's where you can be great at everything without any drawbacks.

The things is, in an MMO you start in one area and slowly progress to other areas. You can't go anywhere and do what you want to do. Bethesda's aim is to let players do all quests in random succession and not follow a pre-set path of progression. That's why it must have level scaling, because static levels will force player to stay in certain areas. And for people saying Morrowind had only static levels - it didn't. Most dungeons were static but the open world was almost completely leveled. For instance, you never ran into Ogrims or blighted creatures in the Grazelands until you were a certain level. On top of that, Morrowind was unbalanced to the extreme, at level 25 you were usually completely overpowered and combat was no longer any challenge whatsoever.

It's hard to find the balance in a real open world and let players go where they want to. OOO was cool and all, but still way more limiting than what Bethesda wants in their games. I think Skyrim is their best effort so far, but it still has a lot of flaws. Let's hope they'll get even better with it as time progresses.

Personally, I'm quite happy with certain items only appearing at later levels, eg Eleven swords etc.

It keeps the game fresh, by upgrading/enchanting/smithing new stuff as the game progresses. Same with meeting new enemies as the game levels up - breathes new life into it and stops it becoming stale..

Cause its dumbed down to [censored] so any [censored] with a controller can play. Fiance's 9y old brother could probably beat the game. (he can barely speak english)

...Just follow the white marker....

You miss the point....he needs the developers to control how he plays or its not a good experience for him.

Dear lord, I hate the stupidity of mankind.

Regardless of whether you agree with the opinion of the OP, there is no excuse for completely ignoring all of his points and going ape s.hit because he put the terms "MMO" and "WoW" in his OP.

Morons. Almost all of you.

Here is another misconception: bandits, or some other creatures, are supposed to be trash mobs.

In WoW, mobs are placed according to their strength, not according to player characters' strengths. Areas are scaled to mob level, not to character level. The powerful mobs are always there, they don't just hide in the ether until the player is prepared to handle them. Their levels aren't capped. In WoW, "the enemy will be ready for a level 15 WARRIOR with full warrior perks while all you got is some smithing perks and speech..... ", the same as in Skyrim. The difference: WoW, with its zoned-off mobs, is a zoo, and Skyrim is a jungle. Some players want their beasts caged. They want the freedom to encounter only those beasts they feel ready to face. Other players prefer a safari.

Totally agree!

How many TES games have you played. And along those lines if level scaling kills it why do you keep coming back?

Are you sure level scaling is killing them? It seems to be a fairly odd sentiment given it's been a constant in the last few games and they've been progressively becoming more popular, both critically and in terms of numbers sold. I don't think level scaling is doing TES any harm at all. I just think you don't like it. There's a really big difference here.

FYP.

And.


They defend it because they do not play the game to level up but rather role-play a character and experience an open world environment that has dynamic interaction based on decision he or she makes. The people who have the most problems with the leveling systems are the ones who priority in the game is not role-playing but to level-up and maximize their character to the fullest extent possible. The problem is, this game was not designed for those type players, although those player can still have rewarding experience if they so choose.

This is why people bash the OP for comparing it to WoW. If we wanted to play WoW, we'd go play and when someone threatens the core play of a game most of love, of course we are are going to go ape [censored], so the developers know these people are in the minority, although sales do most of that work for us. Not to mention, the OP condesending opinion that he knows whats best of the majority of TES Players, when clearly he doesnt for reasons already stated.

I will repond objectively to the OP; give him a break people.

Disclaimer: I really love Skyrim.




misconception 1. (level scaling is needed in an open world game)

This is a no win scenario. Real worlds would have a mix of weak and powerful enemies intermixed everywhere.
So NOT having scaling is actually just as unrealistic. Why would everyone in one region be weak or uber?
Scale or no scale is unrealistic.
For game purposes, you need some scaling because the world would be too large and take too long/too much money to produce.



This however brings me to misconception 2.
(Regular trash mobs need to scale up to your level)

I think some scaling of trash mobs is good, otherwise it is boring. Just make it so it takes a lot of trash mobs to be a real threat.
All skills should have combat usefullness; such as speech reducing enemy morale, or something.



Misconception 3. (Warriors don't have to be as powerful as mages. Just lower the difficulty if your a mage or use broken mechanics)

I agree, but it has nothing to do with mmorpg vs non mmorpg. Some degree of balance is better, in my opinion. When I play a single player rpg I get very annoyed when one class is uber and another weak. That is not fun for me.




Misconception 4. (Don't max smithing/enchanting/alch if you want to enjoy the game.)

I agree in general. But my opinion is that Smithing/Enchanting/Alchemy should offer roughly the same advantage as weapon/block/armor or spell/spell/spell, etc....
If all skills offer roughly the same increase in overall power, there is no real problem.